The Christian Chronicle Podcast
The Christian Chronicle Podcast explores the news and stories shaping Church of Christ congregations and members around the world.
The Christian Chronicle Podcast
Episode 116: Grammy-winning Christian artist Chris Tomlin on his new movie, 'The Last Supper'
More Christians in more parts of the world may sing Chris Tomlin's worship music ('Our God,' 'How Great is Our God,' 'God of Angel Armies') than any other artist alive today. A Grammy Award winner and two-time Songwriter of the Year with more than 7 billion global streams, Tomlin is branching out into film. He is executive producer for the new major motion picture The Last Supper, written and directed by Mario Borrelli and starring Robert Knepper, James Faulkner, and Jamie Ward.
In this episode, he talks about what it is like to be caught up in a global worship movement and why The Last Supper is the right film for right now.
Link to Chris Tomlin's website
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Welcome to the Christian Chronicle Podcast. We are bringing you the story shaping Church of Christ congregations and members around the world. Here's our host, BT Irwin.
BT Irwin:Family and friends, neighbors and, most of all, strangers. Welcome to the Christian Chronicle Podcast. May what you are about to hear bless you and honor God. If you don't know Chris Tomlin, then I bet my next trip to Chick-fil-A that you know his music. I wouldn't be surprised if you sang some of his music in just the last few days.
BT Irwin:Tomlin may be the most often sung contemporary artist in churches in the United States. He has 21 number one radio singles, 30 top 10 hits, more than any other Christian artist, has sold more than 12 million albums and has more than 7 billion that's billion with a B global streams. He's won a Grammy, three Billboard Music Awards, 31 GMA Dove Awards and is one songwriter of the year from both ASCAP and BMI. Like I said, he wrote songs that you've probably sung in church, such as how Great Is Our God, whom Shall I Fear? God of Angel Armies and Holy Forever. And somehow he has not exhausted his well of creative energy. So he is now entering the world of film. He's executive producer of the new motion picture, the Last Supper, co-directed and written by Mario Borelli and starring Robert Knepper, james Faulkner and Jamie Ward. It's in theaters by the time you hear this. Chris, welcome to the Church of Christ. Have you ever gotten a taste of our famous a cappella worship experience?
Chris Tomlin:Oh yeah, man. Oh yeah, I've had part of my, some of my family's, in the Church of Christ and I know it very well and I love that.
BT Irwin:Absolutely.
Chris Tomlin:I was just at something recently and they had this and it was a Church of Christ event and I was playing at it. It had this big acapella singing as well. It was awesome.
BT Irwin:Yeah, I've heard a lot of your songs sung acapella style over the course of my life.
Chris Tomlin:Yeah, it's pretty great.
BT Irwin:From what I know about you, you didn't set out to end up being who you are and doing what you're doing. You didn't even dream about it. I think you majored in pre-med or physical therapy or something at Texas A&M. I know that you are who you are and you're doing what you do. Do you ever feel like something big and out of control just kind of picked you up and is carrying you along kind of like an out-of-body experience?
Chris Tomlin:Oh, yeah, absolutely, man. That's the story of my life. You know, I really feel that it's been these moments, these kind of marking moments where I could have never planned this, could have never dreamed what God has done and the opportunities he's given me, and I would have never thought this. I come from a very small little town in Texas. We got one Dairy Queen, one Red Light, that was it. And just you know, if you had told me that my life would be traveling the world playing music, I would have never dreamed that, writing songs and it was. But. But I had. These people came along and believed in me at different points in my life, and then god, just his hand just moving it, moving mountains really.
Chris Tomlin:uh, for for all of, and so I count it just. I'm just so grateful. I always think of how grateful I am that God's given me this life and given me this ability with my songs, and it's a privilege of my life to stand there on stage after stage and after night and share these songs with people.
BT Irwin:Uh, I reckon there are a lot of folks in the church of Christ, uh, who know your songs, but they don't know you, and I reckon you are more than okay with that. I read an article about your song how Great Is Our God and how it has taken on a life of its own among believers around the world. When you write a song and you put it out there, when do you get the sense that it's not your song anymore and that it's outgrown you? Yeah, that's what I always pray for that.
Chris Tomlin:The song goes way past me. That's what I mean by that. Is that, like you says, people just sitting in church singing a song they're not thinking about oh, this is a Chris Tomlin song, is it kind of like amazing grace, right, not that any of my songs touch that song, but like when people sing that song, they don't think I'm singing a John Newton song, right, they think I'm just singing this hymn that has become part of the just. It's become part of the just, the soundtrack of church. And so if, if I can have one or two songs that ever do that, that just go like that's so special to me because it has nothing to do with me anymore and it's just become something that people sing and and that's what I there's been a couple of songs I feel that have done that and it's pretty special.
BT Irwin:So I imagine some folks think that when you write a song, you go into a forest glade or you know some room that looks like Dumbledore study and a heavenly light shines down on you and, voila, song is born. But what is the gestation and birthing process actually like for a song?
Chris Tomlin:That's man. Every one of them is different and usually, um these days, it's uh, it's this. Right here, I'm like I'm singing something into my phone.
BT Irwin:I've got this idea it just comes, I'll be driving.
Chris Tomlin:We come in the night and an idea just comes and there we go. But it's usually a group of people together. I have a couple friends that I get together with and we bring our ideas, we bring our thoughts and then we we like how do we write? How do we help this? How do we write this song that can find its way into the church, find its way into songs of worship? That's the way. That's the way I try to write. I try to write in a way that people can sing. There's something simple people can sing.
BT Irwin:There's something they need to sing.
Chris Tomlin:There's something hopefully they want to sing. It's hopefully something that that puts a. You know it helps people see. I've always said that I wanted my songs to help people see more than just sing. To let people see the goodness of God, to see the grace of God, to see the mercy of God. Help, their help, open our eyes in a spiritual way you know to see, and when you see you can't help but sing.
Chris Tomlin:That's what I've always said and the more you see, the more you sing. And so the songs, they. It's a mystery, still a mystery, how they come, but they do just come. These little, these little, it's like that, it's like really fast and it's like that, and it's, at that moment, inspiration, and then I gotta figure out how to hold on to it and and develop that out, and it's usually one. One last thing that, because I could talk all day on songwriting, but it's usually the most powerful ones, something out of God's word that just jumps out, and I didn't. It's. I see it a different way. It's a verse I read and it's like, oh, wow, that's powerful. I want you know something that comes out, like I can remember, in reading Revelation 4, and it says and they fall down before Him, they lay their crowns before Him, they sing worthy is the Lamb. And I just wrote this simple we fall down, we lay our crowns at the feet of Jesus.
BT Irwin:You know, in this little chorus.
Chris Tomlin:I was just looking at God's Word, just singing it, and little did I know this song would be sung in all churches around the world.
BT Irwin:But it's like they just come in, these little sparks. Well, speaking of seeing, let's talk about the movie the Last Supper. It's coming out right around the time that we released this episode. My family got to watch a preview of it last night. We enjoyed it a lot. You're a musician, so why branch out and take the risk on this new medium for you? How did you get involved with the Last Supper and why did you decide this film was the one that was worth your personal involvement at this time?
Chris Tomlin:Well, yeah, it's like all these things, it's just like God just directing. And it was obvious because it started with music. It started with the song and when the credits roll, when the movie comes out, you'll hear this brand new song. I wrote no greater love. You would have thought that I just sit and watch the movie and then wrote the song. But these guys came to me and said, hey, we've got this movie and would you have a? You know, a song that could work? And I'm going to show you what we're working on. They show me what we're working on. I was like, wow, this is different. I thought, is it?
Chris Tomlin:When I thought the last service is a different Will take and it and really powerful, and I was moved in so many different ways and I thought, well, I've got this song I read a couple months ago. I've not played it for anybody. I got this demo, played it for them, and the whole team was like this is the song movie, this is, this is the song songs called no greater love. It's John 15. No greater love than this, than a man lay down his life for his friends and I.
Chris Tomlin:And so when that kind of happened, I was like maybe we could partner in a greater way. Maybe this is something that I could be involved with, because I loved how theologically strong, how biblically strong this movie is. There's so many elements of it that are just bringing the Bible to life and I love that, and so I thought you know I can do this, I can help, I'd love to help partner with this and just more than just a way of just having a song in the movie. Partner with this and just more than just a way of just having a song in the movie.
BT Irwin:But how can I be a help, be a voice for it? So, uh, why do you and your collaborators on this film project believe this is the right story, the last supper to tell right now?
Chris Tomlin:Well, I, think the what's compelling to me is it's obviously when you think of the last supper, for for for one, the title last supper think is interesting because when you think of a movie of Jesus it's usually the cross or the resurrection or the birth Right. Those are the, those are the things. That was the big moments, and for it to focus on the Last Supper is very interesting to me. So that caught my attention.
Chris Tomlin:And then how it's told through, really through Peter and Judas, those kind of big, and Caiaphas and like so Jesus obviously is the main character of the story, but when you see Judas and Peter and Caiaphas and you realize, wow, that is humanity today. Nothing has changed. We all still struggle with betrayal, denial, power, greed, doubt, all the things that are in there, and so I was. I feel like people are going to be so moved by this, or just they're going to be. Their hearts are going to be pierced again because we can all put ourselves at this table. These guys were not perfect people and they weren't these saints. These are like we know we call them saints now, but they weren't these perfect saints. They were like wow, they got it all together.
Chris Tomlin:Jesus chose some guys who, when he was at the table with them, he knew they would betray him. He knew that they would deny him, and yet he still said this is for you. And it hit me again. I was like I've been a Christian my whole life, most of my life, and I thought I don't think I've ever really seen it that, thought of it that way, when Jesus was breaking the bread and he gave them the cup and he said this is my body, this is my blood. Everything changes tonight. This is a different and this is no longer the lamb. I am the lamb. This is my sacrifice, it's for you. And yet he knew in just a minute you're going to betray me, you're going to deny me and I think, man, how much, how much, much, how much is that? How much of that is in me and I feel like I feel like I could put myself there and just, and it was powerful in that way.
BT Irwin:Yeah, Having seen the film, I can tell everybody that some of the most moving parts of the film are the interactions between Jesus and Judas and Jesus and Peter at the last supper it's. It's presented very, very well. So what are y'all hoping will happen because of this film?
Chris Tomlin:I hope people are. You know, it's a moment in time, right, there's just so much amazing things coming out and amazing content coming out and and media coming out for the gospel. In this amazing moment there's just so much, and I love that. I think it's. We live in a world where the culture feels so dark and everybody feels that it feels there's so much hatred out there, so much division, so much fear, so many things and yet and I think people, whether where they know they're not not longing for this, the forgiveness, the mercy, the grace, the love that is in the gospel, the message of jesus, and so and what I love about it being in theaters is that people will walk in a theater who would never walk in a church.
Chris Tomlin:And when you put out a film like this, um, the producer, michael scott, of this film, he said, of all the when, all the films he does, all Christian films, he does about 40% of the audience they're not believers that walk into a film like this. That's incredible. That's not happening in churches. I doubt 40% of the congregation is not believers in Sunday, so that's so powerful. What a moment to. And maybe people are skeptical of Jesus, like, okay, heard about him, everybody talks about him and maybe people are skeptical of Jesus, like, okay, heard about him, everybody talks about him. What is this all about? I think people will be struck by this portrayal of him, and it's done in a beautiful way and it's very biblically grounded. So I hope people are inspired, their lives are changed. You know this moment, right, this moment that this film is about changed the entire world. This was the moment that the entire world changed, right? And this message is still changing lives today and I believe it'll change lives when people see it.
BT Irwin:Amen. Well, a lot of Church of Christ congregations have been using the show the Chosen as a catalyst for discussion and study, and that's led to a lot of conversation about how much artists can take license with inspired scripture to create and present compelling stories that people want to watch in a film or a TV format. How did the collaborators on the Last Supper work through striking that balance between artistic license and scriptural fidelity?
Chris Tomlin:Well, that's what I love about this and that's why I kind of put my name behind it. I thought this is so theologically sound. When Jesus speaks, there's very few lines that he says that aren't straight from words in red. I thought that was really interesting and I love that. So it's like he just brings all and it's, you know, it just takes all these things he said in Scripture and the guy who portrays Jesus. That's his lines.
Chris Tomlin:And then when you're developing Peter and you're developing Judas, obviously there's gaps there of like, okay, we don't know everything when they were walking the road. That we're saying to each other, but so you're creating that story, right, and so you try to stay as true to it. I love that. This just really stays on to this idea of like, okay, judas, like he's been with Jesus for three years, like seeing everything he's seen, why would he? Why would he do what he did? And I love that.
Chris Tomlin:As you know, it's pretty hard to watch. It's pretty, it's pretty strong, it's pretty strong. But that that character, that demon, that snake, that just was always speaking to him, just, hey, man, you don't, you know, you, you don't want this, you don't want, you don't want this way. There's a better way, there's a better way for you power, greed, all the things and it's. And I thought that's a powerful portrayal, because that's the same lies that we're being told today, those lies we've been bombarded with. So I thought that was it was. It's pretty dark and and rough when it comes to Judas, but I'm like isn't that what evil is? I mean it's a, it's a. I mean it's not some nice little fairy saying, oh no, this, this is like, this is the enemy of the world, coming at people, trying to distract them from Jesus. And so I thought that was done in a pretty powerful way, cause I was like, okay, yeah, that's what it feels like to me too, when I have all that stuff and you know, coming at me.
BT Irwin:Yeah, it's very visceral portrayal. Can't wait for people to see it. Last question what is the best thing about being Chris Tomlin and what's the hardest thing about being Chris Tomlin?
Chris Tomlin:The hardest thing, the best thing is easy being in my family, being a dad of three girls, that's the best thing. I got three little girls in me and that's what's what I.
Chris Tomlin:That's the best thing that ever happened to me, and so love that. The hardest thing would be would be that all the travel it takes to. I wish I could be everywhere at once, but you know, when you're just, I love playing music, I love all the things, but what it takes being away from the family is that takes, that takes a toll. Um, so I guess the best and worst is both family that god's giving his family, and being away from them. But but we all in this together my wife, she's incredible and there's like this is what we do, this is what god's given us to do, and we know that some days you won't, some seasons you won't be here, some seasons you will, and that's so. That's the good and bad.
BT Irwin:Well, Chris Tomlin's just a guy from Texas who writes a few worship songs, but odds are you've probably sung them and listened to them in the last seven days. If you've been to church and now you have a chance to go see a film that he executive produced, that would be the Last Supper in theaters by the time you hear this episode. We'll put a link to Chris's website and to the film in the show notes. Chris, thank you for hanging out with the Church of Christ crowd today.
Chris Tomlin:Amen, thank you. Great, awesome, appreciate it. Thanks for getting the word out about this as well.
BT Irwin:It's our pleasure. God bless you.
Chris Tomlin:Thank you buddy.
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Holly Linden:The Christian Chronicle Podcast is a production of the Christian Chronicle Inc. Informing and inspiring Church of Christ congregations, members and ministries around the world since 1943. The Christian Chronicle's managing editor is Audrey Jackson, editor-in-chief Bobby Ross Jr and President and CEO Eric Trigestad. The Christian Chronicle Podcast is written, directed, hosted and edited by BT Irwin and is produced by James Flanagan in Detroit, michigan, usa. I remember the way you called me friend.
Speaker 4:Then I think of your mercy, the scars on your hands. There's no greater love there, never will be. You laid down your life for someone like me. No matter how far I run, your arms are wide enough. All of my stains are all washed away. No, there's no greater love. There's no greater love. I know it won't give up. It never fades, it overflows, it falls like rain, leaves a 99 to save the one. So I sing your praise. So I sing there's no greater love. There's no greater love. I know there's no greater love, never will be. You brought the chains. You set me free. No matter how far I run, your arms are wide enough. All of my stains Are all washed away. No, there's no greater love. There's no greater love, I know. No, there's no greater love, I know. No, there's no greater love. There's no greater love, I know.