The Christian Chronicle Podcast
The Christian Chronicle Podcast explores the news and stories shaping Church of Christ congregations and members around the world.
The Christian Chronicle Podcast
Episode 121: Christian nationalism and the Churches of Christ (Dr. Christina Littlefield)
What is Christian nationalism and what are its effects on the United States? Christians these days may choose to consume any number of blogs, books, cable news, podcasts, social media and talk radio shows that deal with those questions.
In this episode, however, we address how Christian nationalism may effect the Church of Christ community in the United States. In other words, is it bad or good for the health, integrity and witness of the church and its members?
Dr. Christina Littlefield, co-author with Dr. Richard Hughes, of Christian America and the Kingdom of God (University of Illinois Press) helps us unpack what "Christian nationalism" actually means and how the idea developed and manifested in the United States over 400 years. She answers questions like:
- Is Christian nationalism biblical?
- Can Christian nationalism be a good thing?
- How embedded and engaged should Christians be in the halls of power and in the public square?
- How does Christian nationalism affect Christians and congregations who embrace it?
- How might the Church of Christ community avoid the sin of political idolatry?
Links to books and podcast episodes that appear in this interview:
Myths America Lives By: White Supremacy and the Stories that Give Us Meaning, by Richard Hughes
Reviving the Ancient Faith: The Story of Churches of Christ in America, by Richard Hughes
Donate to support this ministry of "information and inspiration" at christianchronicle.org/donate
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Photo by Cody Otto on
Learn more about how to visit the Bible lands as a graduate student at the Freed-Hardeman University Graduate School of Theology at fhu.edu/chronicle
Family and friends, neighbors and, most of all, strangers. Welcome to the Christian Chronicle Podcast. We are bringing you the stories shaping Church of Christ congregations and members around the world. I'm BT Irwin and it is an honor and pleasure to be your host. May what you are about to hear bless you and honor God.
BT Irwin:Today we're talking about Christian nationalism and we're not making any bones about it. Christian nationalism is not a term I ever heard growing up in the Church of Christ in the United States in the 70s, 80s and 90s. I can't even tell you the first time I heard someone use the term Christian nationalism, but I can tell you that I started hearing it a lot in recent years. I bet you did too. Here at the Christian Chronicle we found that whenever we do an article or column or podcast that touches on Christian nationalism, our audience grows bigger and often responds sometimes with strong opinions, and that gives us a clue that folks who engage the Christian Chronicle are at least curious about Christian nationalism, indeed more curious about Christian nationalism than some other subjects we cover here.
BT Irwin:So when one of the distinguished historians and scholars in the Church of Christ community co-authors a book on the history of Christian nationalism in the United States we pay attention. That distinguished historian and scholar is Dr Richard Hughes, who we had on this show twice before. Like I said, he recently co-authored an expanded and updated edition of his book Christian America and the Kingdom of God, published this year by the University of Illinois Press. Dr Hughes wrote many books that may be familiar to our of Churches of Christ in America. His co-author is Dr Christina Littlefield, associate Professor of Communication and Religion at Pepperdine University, an institution of higher education with deep roots and strong ties in the Church of Christ.
BT Irwin:Before co-authoring the expanded edition of Christian America and the Kingdom of God, dr Littlefield wrote Chosen Nations Pursuit of the Kingdom of God and Its Influence on Democratic Values in late 19th century Britain and the United States. We were going to have both Dr Hughes and Dr Littlefield on the show, but Dr Hughes had to bow out to attend to a family matter. We're pleased to welcome his co-author, dr Christina Littlefield, to the show. Dr Littlefield, are you ready for this?
Christina Littlefield:Let's go.
BT Irwin:All right. The last episode we did about Christian nationalism was episode 64, way back in May 2024. And we interviewed Dr Brad East at Abilene Christian University. He made the case that Christian nationalism is a term we need to discard for a couple of reasons. First, it means different things to different people, so if you and I don't mean the same thing by it, we can't have a constructive conversation about it. And second, dr East said that Christian nationalism has become mostly a slander to mean people to my right on the American political spectrum. So the same way that words like fascists, hitler and Nazis get thrown around so carelessly, what do you think? Is there any terminology that we could adopt that would be more descriptive or useful if we're actually trying to get somewhere good together?
Christina Littlefield:I hear his critique and I think it is really important to define your terms and what, if you're going to use Christian nationalism, what you mean by it. But I think it does speak and give us language to describe what we are seeing and what we've experienced historically and what we're experiencing now in a way that I don't know that there is a better term. And I think those other words, like fascist, are sometimes necessary words for us to use. But we want to be, we do when they convey something bigger we do and darker. We do want to be really careful and define how and when we use it and what we mean by it. But no, I stand by Christian nationalism is the best term to use.
BT Irwin:Yeah, I think you touched on something there. It's so hard. One of the hardest things for me, because I think very carefully about language, is when is it appropriate to use a term and when is it not? So for this episode, could we come up with a working definition of what we mean by Christian nationalism and we can hang all the questions that follow on that peg follow on that peg.
Christina Littlefield:Yeah, when I think about this, I like to actually start with the term civil religion, which is a term from Robert Bella that speaks to the ways we in America bring sacred and secular ideas together and sometimes sacralize secular ideas and sometimes secularize sacred ideas, and so that speaks to like there's a cultural framework where we have values and beliefs and narratives and philosophies and it all kind of comes together and it shapes who we are, how we think you know the American way of life, and so having people understand that term, which is more neutral, then helps them understand Christian nationalism, which is still a cultural framework of sorts that fuses Christianity and nationalism together and it has its own values and beliefs and narratives, et cetera. In that way and that's how sociologists like Samuel Perry and Andrew Whitehead tended to find it is this cultural framework that fuses Christian identity and American civic life. I would go further and I would say it's an ideology which is why I find the term helpful that fuses Christian identity, and often white Christian identity, with the ideology of nationalism, and so this is why this is important Nationalism is an ideology that puts the nation first above all else. It is often ethnic nationalism, so ethnic centric based in one group of people, even within the nation, is superior to other people, and it often breeds contempt and fear for outsiders, outsiders being people in other nations, but even people within your own nation who don't look like or think like you do.
Christina Littlefield:And so when we have Christian nationalism, it is a form of Christian supremacy that seeks to put often white Christians and often white Christian males historically as superior to other citizens. And so it does have a mythic kind of narrative behind it that we were founded as a Christian nation, that we've somehow lost our way, and advocates believe they have a mission from God to kind of take back the nation, take back and make America Christian again. But they advocate for their privilege in the public sphere and for their vision of the nation to kind of rule over and dominate others. And so we argue that, historically, this pursuit of a Christian America and even the kingdom of God, while it has done some good, immense good, it often leads to the conflation of race and culture in a way that leads to what we call an empire state of mind, and that is not Christian and not democratic either. And so, yes, christian nationalism is really about power and privilege for one group of citizens over other citizens and it is putting the nation and that national identity over the Christian faith.
BT Irwin:One of the questions I've always asked people when I get into conversations with them about this is which Christians? Because that is a term that applies broadly when you're just talking about 320 million people. So I'll ask you that which Christians usually are we talking about when we're talking about Christian nationalism in the United States?
Christina Littlefield:So our book looks historically from the Puritans through the October 22 midterms, and so, quite honestly, all kinds of Christians get caught up in this story. The more benign version is a kind of a generic belief in a Christian America that actually more than half of Americans fall into and believe in, and so that's Orthodox, mainline Roman Catholic, evangelical, like all kinds of Christians can fall into that general. Like we want our Christian values to shape our nation, right, but then it's like, okay, which Christian values? Right, it gets even in deeper versus the Christian nationalism is today is tends to be white evangelical, but it also can include some Hispanic Catholic and Protestant, some black Protestants, historically black Protestants, some even Roman Catholic. There's, there's goes a little bit of a different direction, but so it can include all Christians direction, but so it can include all Christians.
Christina Littlefield:And so one thing we want to wrestle with and my students wrestle with is how do we even define Christian right? We define Christian as orthodoxy, right, right beliefs, and we often go back, think about the Nicene Creed as one way of thinking about right beliefs. But we're a non-credal faith in the Church of Christ, so that doesn't necessarily help us, although most in the Church of Christ would follow. But our founders didn't necessarily right. Barton Stone wasn't a Nicene Christian, but Alexander Campbell was, and we might think then also of orthopraxy right practice. Are we mimicking Christ? Are we acting like Christ? And so those questions can help us. But in Christian nationalism it is self-defined. The people who are propagators of it define themselves as Christians, and how close they hew to Christian beliefs or how close they hew to Christian practice is a matter of debate.
BT Irwin:I can imagine some people listening to this right now would say well, what's so bad about Christian nationalism? What's wrong with wanting our Christian values to have such influence over our society?
Christina Littlefield:I love that. I love that question so much. So let's go back and differentiate nationalism from patriotism. First of all, nationalism is love of country above all else and also usually love of a certain people group within that country and putting them as supreme over all else. That's idolatry. Patriotism is love for your country because of its laws and its principles and it allows you to have a right, ordering, right. Christian nationalism the faith gets subordinated to the nation. But you can have a proper civic patriotism that seeks to care for your society and appreciate the place where you live and lean into serving and making that place better. That is healthy, that can recognize the good right in your society but also is is willing to critique and go. Okay, here's where we fall short, right, here's where we can strive to do better. And so most scholars who look at nationalism differentiate nationalism from patriotism. Some might say ethnic nationalism versus civic nationalism. I find that that, in the words of Jason Blakely, one of my colleagues still is putting, tends to put one group as kind of the dominant group. But but patriotism can be really healthy.
Christina Littlefield:When we think about how Christian values shape the nation, I think that gets really sticky right. Which Christian values and how are they shaping? So one thing I stress I was just talking with a group of capstone seniors at Pepperdine and they were believing that Christian nationalism was any Christian engagement in the public sphere or in shaping public policy. I'm like, oh no, no, no, that's not Christian nationalism. In fact, we argue that is. The antidote to Christian nationalism is more involvement in shaping. But it's how right it's the means that you use.
Christina Littlefield:Are you, as I think about this, are you seeking to influence, right? Are you by persuasion, or are you trying to dominate by coercion? Are we seeking to share power and influence with others and work together in a pluralistic democracy for the flourishing of everybody? Are we seeking to privilege ourselves and our way of thinking? Are we seeking laws that contribute to the public good or are we seeking laws that limit the freedom of fellow citizens? And so those are some questions to kind of ask and wrestle with, I think. What policies and what Christian values? That gets even stickier right. How do we decide? And so I teach a whole religion, ge, that helps students think about, wrestle with how can we do this? Well, how can we do this in a way that avoids that empire state of mind but is still true to what we believe and contributes to what we believe, while also leaving room for others to contribute what they believe right.
BT Irwin:Most of the folks listening to this are members or former members of the Church of Christ, and I reckon they're listening because of their relationship to the Church of Christ.
BT Irwin:So I want to frame the rest of this conversation not in terms of politics in the United States, but in terms of how politics in the United States affects the health and integrity of the Church of Christ.
BT Irwin:Here I assume the most important thing to people in our audience is that they be faithful and obedient apprentices and students of Jesus Christ and that they maintain the health and integrity of the body of Christ here in the United States. As I was reading your book, I woke to this observation. For the last several years, every conversation I hear in Christian circles that deals with politics seems to start and end with what is good and right for the United States. I cannot recall any political dialogue or political talk that had the health and integrity of the church as its focus and goal. So it seems to me like we are more and more motivated to talk about federal policy and the politicking that goes into it than we are to talk about the kingdom of God in the way of Jesus Christ, almost as if the nation has replaced the church as a first importance to Christians or, if not, that we can no longer imagine one without the other, as if we believe that the United States and the church are fused somehow. What do you think of this?
Christina Littlefield:I mean, that's exactly the problem with Christian nationalism is that we fuse them together and then we subordinate the church to the nation and we might think we're still pursuing the kingdom of God and whatever political party we support, but we are subordinating them. And so I think that's really important. That Christian nationalism is idolatry. I would actually argue it breaks a lot of the Ten Commandments. It often puts political ideology ahead of God. So in that way we can see that it's not just idolatrous, but it can be seen as adulterous.
Christina Littlefield:We're cheating on the church with our political ideologies and I think we all need to be aware of. You know what's directing our lives. Is it our political worldview or is it our Christian faith and our work in the church, and I could go on that particular vein. But I think the point about the emphasis on the US and the emphasis on national politics is really important. We as Christians need to have an international right, revelation right, international kingdom of God. Every tribe, nation, tongue will worship and recognize that we need to seek the good of the entire world. I also think we actually can do the most in our own communities and so, you know, we might be able to do the most good in our own city, city council, state school board, volunteering in our own communities. So that kind of national focus also, I think, sometimes keeps us from doing good where we're planted.
BT Irwin:As somebody who's been an elected official this goes back a little bit to what you said a few minutes ago when being elected to office or serving in a public office as a Christian, what does it mean, then, to espouse Christian values in that place of authority? I took it to mean that I have a responsibility to love my neighbors through my public service, so I need to comport myself with excellence and integrity and do the most good for as many people as I could. However, some people would run for a school board or a city council, try to get into public office to promote what they might call a Christian agenda. So can you you know what I mean by that? I mean, are those kind of two different things in your mind?
Christina Littlefield:They are it's. Are you using the power of public office to serve curriculum or ban? Certain books has been banned, certain maybe education? We don't like that. You know sex ed was the first battleground for a lot of Christians, and so yeah, but are we serving all students in that community and a lot of it is so performative? Right Battles right now to display the Ten Commandments in Louisiana schools. Display the 10 commandments in Louisiana schools, for example. Is that really promoting Christianity? Is that really, you know, showing people how our faith changes our lives and and and and makes us better and makes us more loving, or is it? It's just a coercive? Let's push this on people in a in a way that that maybe will make them even turn against it?
BT Irwin:I want to. I want to speak for those that that hold to hold to this idea of Christian nationalism being a positive thing. I reckon there are quite a few folks in Church of Christ pews who who believe, much like the people who raised me. Like I said, growing up in small town Ohio. We would say, well, what would be wrong with Christian values having more influence in our culture and our society? Certainly, I still believe that now. So I want to ask what about Christian nationalism, as we've defined it here, could be dangerous to the Christians who believe in it or to the health and integrity of the church? Why is this not a threat to the nation, but a threat to our own selves as followers of Jesus Christ?
Christina Littlefield:Well, I think it leads us into the sin of idolatry, careful about kind of who's wagging the dog right what is directing and leading us, and that's hard and that's something our faith. I think. What I appreciate about the Church of Christ is we were trying to restore right a closer, more pure vision of Christianity, and so I think we need to be really careful about that. It is, I think, where most in our Church of Christ would fall into is the more benign pursuit of a Christian America, and when Christians were far and above the demographic majority in the nation it was much easier to say well, of course we should then shape the nation with our values, and I think there was so much good that came out of pursuing the kingdom of God and we try to show that particularly the ending of human enslavement right Came from people wanting their Christian values to shape the nation. Defense for human enslavement also came from people wanting their vision of a Christian society to shape the nation. The labor rights that we take for granted today came from Christian nationalists wanting to have their Christian values pursue the nation. And I think a lot of good happening right now. You know we have a massive unhoused population here in California and I see so many Christian groups on the front lines of trying to serve those who are unhoused and get them help and get them into housing and get them medical treatment and doing some immense good, and whether that's handing out what we call blessing bags at our church of, like you know, plastic baggies full of stuff they need, or, you know, serving them food and soup kitchens, or, you know, working in shelters or whatnot, and so you know, my church has a lot of work with a group called Many Mansions that is about helping people get into housing. So the church is doing immense good and that's Christian values shaping the public sphere. That's doing immense good.
Christina Littlefield:The challenge with the Christian America myth is that it still says that this nation should be Christian. Right. When we insist on the nation being Christian or make being a good American be the same as being a good Christian being a good Christian means you're a good American right Then we are essentially led down a path that accepts coercive means to keep the nation Christian or to force others to accept some of our visions for society. And it's there where I think we do a disservice to our neighbors and to our fellow citizens and to the witness of our faith and so, again, the means of how we do it, I think are so important, and I wrestle with students. I love to wrestle with students because you know I believe Jesus is the truth, the way and the life.
Christina Littlefield:I believe that Jesus Christ is the way, the 100% way to God, and so in that I could be accused of being a Christian supremacist. Right, I think Christianity is the best way to God. But I have hopefully enough humility to also recognize I can't intellectually prove that I can't. God doesn't want me to force that on other people. The way that I share my faith is forthright. Here's my, here's what I believe is the truth. Right, and I invite you to partake, I invite you to check it out for yourself. Right, it's our posture. I think that makes the difference. But I think we as Christians in America have to give up a Christian America because the numbers are no longer on our side, and when we try to force that, I think we actually do more harm to the practice of true Christianity.
BT Irwin:I think we actually do more harm to the practice of true Christianity.
BT Irwin:Well, I'm a history nut, as anyone who knows me can tell you, and I really appreciate the breadth and depth of your account of the history of how Christians have tried to influence or outright control society in the United States, going back to even before the revolution, and that also includes how the development of the United States influenced and shaped how Christians understand themselves in this country and in the world. One of the odd things about us Church of Christ folks is that on one hand, many of us insist that Christianity was essential to the direction and formation of the United States and you go to great lengths to show that that is in many important ways accurate but many of us also deny that the direction and formation of the United States had any influence on how we do Christianity in church. That's another way of saying that we often entertain imagined and real visions of our role in shaping the country, but we have real blind spots when it comes to understanding how the country shaped us. Would you riff on that thought?
Christina Littlefield:Yeah, I think that's so important. We want to think that we're pure from the culture and we're influencing the culture, but the culture isn't influencing us and that's just False. We you know the those who support the idea of America founded as a Christian nation, often confuse the planting fathers from the founding fathers. I got that from another scholar but I love that idea. So the Puritans wanted a Christian Commonwealth, but the founding fathers set up separation of church and state so that there would be religious liberty for all citizens. And so our church movement comes from the Second Great Awakening, which was a massive revival effort over 40 plus years that, in response to that secular founding, was trying to influence and persuade America to kind of a Protestant culture, cultural Christianity. But so much of the nation's founding even shaped how that manifested Right. The language that we used was this Republican, democratic language. We moved away from doctrine to promote kind of democratic ideals.
Christina Littlefield:We you know most of the early Christians in America were of a Calvinist variety and we at large kicked that to the curb because Calvinist ideas of predestination were not very American right.
Christina Littlefield:They didn't give enough free will and individual choice, and so our movement absorbed all of this, whether we like it or not, as much as we were trying to restore the church, we absorbed a lot of that ethos of the Second Great Awakening and we see it most in Alexander Campbell who of course lived longer than Barton Stone and did more to influence our movement.
Christina Littlefield:You know he very much promoted America as this new order for the ages that was going to maybe usher in the millennium and was going to spread democratic values through the West and then on to the rest of the world and we see that in the pages of the Millennial Harbinger.
Christina Littlefield:So we definitely adopted and incorporated a lot of that and adopted a lot of the individualism of the American psyche of that second great awakening age. And it was that awakening was very successful in stamping the nation as Protestant for about 150 years, which is where those who want to promote the idea of a Christian American can most point to the cultural hegemony of Protestantism in this time period. Of course it left people out right, and Roman Catholics particularly, and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, like there was groups that were excluded in that vision of a Christian America that today are part of, sometimes part of Christian nationalism, because they need the numbers. But in that in the second great awakening time period there was a ton of anti-Catholicism, particularly so. Even then it left left people out of the vision.
BT Irwin:We had. We had Dr Hughes on the show back in episode 71 last July and that entire episode was about how the founding of the United States influenced the Church of Christ, particularly how we read the Bible, because and this isn't in your current book, but Alexander Campbell believed the Bible is a constitution in the same way that the US Constitution is a legal framework for the function of the nation. So we'll put a link in the show notes to episode 71, so you can go back and listen to that very specific way that the development of the United States influenced who we are as the Church of Christ. I'm 49 years old. I've been a Church of Christ kid my whole life. My dad and papaw were Church of Christ preachers. My sisters and I went to Church of Christ colleges.
BT Irwin:One of my observations is I've seen a big change in focus over my lifetime.
BT Irwin:You make a lot of references in your book to nostalgia in the 1950s. I think I circled 1950s every time I saw it in the book and it seemed like there was a hundred times and a deep longing in the hearts of many Christians to go back to that era, and I totally get that. I wasn't alive in the 50s but my wife and I have talked a lot lately about how we wish we could go back to the 1980s, when we grew up. Because it's just human. We long for our childhood. If it was a good childhood, it was safe, it was simple, it was magical in our memories. And as we get older and we face death, that longing gets stronger and stronger. So you seem to more than imply that nostalgia is a powerful force behind politics in the United States and political expression and focus among Christians, I'd say particularly in the Church of Christ, as we've struggled a great deal in recent years with decline in membership and so many churches closing. Would you comment a little bit more on that here?
Christina Littlefield:Yeah, I think nostalgia is a powerful force today and I think you're right that it is human to yearn for simpler days. Right, the world is more complicated, more global, more confusing. There have been some serious hardships of you know, massive shifts in the world today, from globalization and the closing of factories and Rust Belt towns right, that was very painful. The rise of the internet and the opening up of that to lots of different worldviews is both exhilarating and interesting, but also confusing. Both exhilarating and interesting, but also confusing. And of course, then the rise of social media immediately after that, um is made us um more connected and less connected at the same time. Right, all of this breeds um feelings of isolation and confusion and thus, yeah, desire for what, at the face, may seem like a simpler time. And particularly, it was a time where, particularly the 1950s why that is such a decade people want to go back to is that was the peak of American Protestant civil religion, was the peak of American Protestant civil religion, and it was a time where Christianity was the dominant Protestant Christianity was the dominant hegemonic force and influence on our nation. And all of that started to fall apart in the 1960s and there was a lot of questioning of faith, and so I think that's what people are yearning for.
Christina Littlefield:I think, particularly for Christians who resonate with traditional family values. There was an appeal that in the 1950s there was our vision of family values were the dominant norm in our society. So there's a yearning to kind of go back to those times. So I get that and I think that that can be really appealing. I think we just forget that not everyone was included in that vision. Right, roman Catholics and Jews were excluded in that vision. We still hadn't opened up immigration to most of the world, so we definitely didn't include other religious worldviews or other, even people, groups, for the most part outside of the dominant European. And of course there was lots of limits on women and people of color. And so when we yearn, what we yearn for is maybe you know a time where our values were valued, but for a lot of people they hear that we want to go back to a time where they were not valued, and so I think we need to be. It's good to both understand the appeal and understand why that same appeal is threatening to other people.
BT Irwin:What character traits of conservative Christians in general and Church of Christ folks in particular are reasons for optimism about how we might turn out as followers of God and witnesses to our wider culture? Okay, so there's a lot there of.
Christina Littlefield:God and witnesses to our wider culture. Oh, okay, so there's a lot there. One thing you were saying about how the book looks at what scripture says, and that's all. Dr Hughes, I updated that very minimally and that's what makes this book unique on the market is it looks at what does the Bible say about a chosen nation, what does the Bible say about a kingdom of God? And then we lay out how Christians have tried to do that over time, and the invitation is for people to measure for themselves. How did we do? By your own definitions of orthodoxy and orthopraxy, how did Christians do? Where did they do? Well, and we might lean into that model, where did they fall short? And then my hope is that people will look internally. How am I doing?
Christina Littlefield:Where do I need to lean in?
Christina Littlefield:Where do I fall short Versus where am I rooted in scripture and loving my neighbors and seeking to protect the least of these?
Christina Littlefield:And I think where conservative Christians and the Church of Christ broadly because we are actually one of the most politically diverse denominations in the country we are rooted in Scripture. We know our Bibles very well generally and so we have great biblical literacy to know the difference between what Scripture says versus what maybe a political pundit is saying on air. And I think we have a deep internal motivation to honor God and be Christ's disciples and witness by our love. And so I think if we can lean into those things, those will serve us really well. I think we do need to be really mindful of what we're consuming and how much time we give to that consumption versus how much time we give to being in community and fellowship with Christians, our fellow believers, in weekly communion, in prayer and Bible study and small groups. Right, how are we balancing that so that we really have strong roots and strong foundations? And I think that's what we do best and that will guard our hearts and minds well, I think.
BT Irwin:Well said Well. Dr Christina Littlefield is co-author, along with our friend Dr Richard Hughes, of Christian America and the Kingdom of God White Christian Nationalism from the Puritans through January 6, 2021. Updated and expanded edition from University of Illinois Press. As a Bible nerd and history buff, and who loves the Church of Christ and the United States, I cannot recommend this book enough. Whether you end up agreeing with the book's thesis, you will learn a lot. So go to the link we post in the show notes and check it out now. Dr Littlefield, thank you for carrying some heavy water with us today.
Christina Littlefield:My pleasure. Thank you for having me.
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