The Christian Chronicle Podcast
The Christian Chronicle Podcast explores the news and stories shaping Church of Christ congregations and members around the world.
The Christian Chronicle Podcast
Episode 125: What will you do if ICE comes to church?
In the United States, the mood about immigration carried a new administration to power in Washington, D.C. Since then, the news media has reported sensational stories of law enforcement arrests around, or in, faith-based ministries and houses of worship.
How does this affect Church of Christ congregations and ministries that are active among immigrant neighbors in their communities? Do they have any reason to fear that law enforcement may target them and their own members and neighbors? What should they do when the law of the Christ and the law of the land seem to contradict each other?
In this episode, immigration attorney Isaul Verdin, former U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement chief counsel Paul Hunker and Bible professor and Church of Christ minister Dr. Jeremie Beller help church and ministry leaders understand the biblical mandate for immigrant care, the laws of the United States, and what to do when the Bible and law enforcement are at odds.
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Family and friends, neighbors and, most of all, strangers. Welcome to the Christian Chronicle Podcast. We're bringing you the stories shaping Church of Christ congregations and members around the world. I'm BT Irwin. May what you are about to hear bless you and honor God.
BT Irwin:How should Church of Christ congregations in the United States love their members and neighbors who are not US citizens, maybe even those whose status in the United States is not certain or may not be legal? This is not a new question, but a new administration in the nation's capital and the buzz in the news, and maybe the pews, makes the question seem more urgent these days To some Church of Christ congregations and members here in the United States. The stakes are high. They are contemplating the real possibility that their members or neighbors could be placed under arrest and deported. They are contemplating the real possibility that they may have to choose between the care and hospitality they give to their own members and neighbors, or standing aside for or even supporting law enforcement, and the arrest of those same members and neighbors. I reckon that, for leaders of those congregations, they never imagined that choosing between obedience to the law of the Christ and the law of the land could turn out this way. You may think I'm being dramatic, but listen to this.
BT Irwin:A couple of months ago we tried to make an episode about Church of Christ congregations that minister to migrant communities. We planned to ask leaders of those congregations to talk about how they were adjusting to and preparing for the threat of more aggressive and invasive law enforcement activity around and maybe in their congregations and their neighborhoods. We asked leaders from several congregations to be on the show. All but three declined for fear that being on this program would make an unsafe situation for their members and neighbors. On the day we were going to record the three leaders who agreed to be on the show, one backed out that morning and when I contacted the remaining two, one of them said he also planned to back out Once again. These leaders expressed concern that being on this show and talking about this subject would draw the wrong kind of attention to their congregations. Out of 125 episodes of the Christian Chronicle podcast so far, that was the first time that congregational leaders ever said no in the first place and then backed out for fear of putting their congregations in some kind of danger.
BT Irwin:We're not talking about their congregations getting written up in a quote-unquote brotherhood publication, as my dad used to say. We're talking about their concern that their congregations could become targets of federal law enforcement. Let that sink in Now. If you follow the Christian Chronicle, you know that our archives are full of stories about Church of Christ congregations in the United States that minister to migrants and refugees. In many cases those stories are about how foreigners become family, many of them submitting to baptism and joining the church. As much as we report on Christians from the United States going into all the world, we report almost as much on all the world coming to Christians in the United States. The borderless kingdom of God is very much on full display in the Christian Chronicle.
BT Irwin:So when the President of the United States promises to use any means to deport 15 to 20 million people in the next four years, it's not a political story, it's a church story, and many Church of Christ congregations, including many that we covered over the years, may feel like they are in the path of a coming storm. What will they do if they have to choose between their own brothers and sisters and neighbors and their own government? We made this episode with Church of Christ congregations in mind. For those congregations that minister to and with immigrants in their communities. We want this episode to be a source of biblical perspective and good information to help work through the decisions that may have to be made. This is not an episode about federal policy. It is an episode about the quote-unquote policies of local congregations as their leaders discern how to respond to changing circumstances around and maybe in their congregations.
BT Irwin:First, you'll hear from a Texas immigration attorney. He'll talk about what congregations need to know about the law now. Next, you'll hear from a Texas immigration attorney. He'll talk about what congregations need to know about the law now. Next, you'll hear from a former official at US Immigration and Customs Enforcement, or ICE for short. He'll talk about how ICE makes decisions about how and when to approach churches, either to arrest suspected illegals on or near church premises or to enlist the help of a church in investigating and detaining suspects. And last, you'll hear from a Bible professor and congregational minister. He'll talk about how congregations can think and act biblically in the tension between what the Christ commands and what the government demands. Our first guest is Esau Verdine, the founder and managing attorney of Verdine Law in Dallas, texas. He's practiced immigration law for more than 25 years. Longtime Christian Chronicle readers will recognize him from some stories we did in the past on Church of Christ Ministries among migrants in the United States. Esau, thank you for making time to talk to us today.
Isaul Verdin:It's great to be here. Thank you for inviting me.
BT Irwin:Yes, sir. So I guess we need to start with this. How has your job changed since January 20, 2025?
Isaul Verdin:Wow, lots of changes since President Trump's inauguration. Certainly the phones from a practical perspective, the phones have been very busy with a lot of questions. The phones have been very busy with a lot of questions, but the general mood and the consensus that I'm perceiving from the clientele and from people that are inquiring with me is just. I'm sensing a lot of apprehension, but, first and foremost, a Christian immigration lawyer, it's an opportunity for me to look at those encounters and point people in the right direction. So it's I've seen it as a great opportunity to discuss all things Jesus and it's been quite remarkable from that perspective. But I would say people are nervous, people are anxious and they're concerned about what the new laws mean for them. I really do believe that there is a lot more fear and concern about something that is not likely to happen. I really, I truly believe that the rumors are heightened right now and our country has a strong tradition of respecting the freedom of religion and not infringing upon the free exercise of that religion.
Isaul Verdin:So historically active criminal federal prosecution for what happens within the premises of a church building has not been the story of American history.
Isaul Verdin:So there are rare examples historically where things like that have happened rare examples historically where things like that have happened, but usually it has to do with malfeasance by an individual and sometimes tax issues you know, tax filings and investigations on bad conduct for individuals.
Isaul Verdin:But this new reality of people being concerned about having members that don't have the requisite immigration status.
Isaul Verdin:Yes, there have been announcements that the shield is off, that the church premise is a fair game, but the government still has to abide by the right procedures. They have to serve warrants. So I think maybe perhaps an education of what that warrant process looks like, just so church leadership can be aware of, in the rare event that something like that does happen, that they know how to handle that situation with calm. But I'd like to remind all of my, the people that inquire with me, especially fellow believers, that you know our first and foremost duty is to God and to love, love our neighbors and love our other church members, and we are practicing our faith by loving them and I think that is the ultimate defense. And I like to state, you know there's a very rare probability that there's going to be this kind of enforcement within the church premises a very small percentage. But there's a 100% degree of certainty that they're going to stand before the Lord one day and give account for the way they conducted themselves towards their neighbors.
Isaul Verdin:So let's keep the right perspective, let's keep things balanced and act accordingly. But again, if in the rare event, law enforcement does appear at the church buildings, I think it's good to know that they have to have a warrant before they start going through the church. It can only go on the public areas in the church building. It can't go in any private administrative offices. If they do want to go into those private areas within the church building, you have to have a search warrant that says that they have that scope of going into those private areas and it has to be signed by a court. The dates have to be specific.
Isaul Verdin:So I would encourage people to read that document. Um, make sure it's signed, make sure things. If there's objection to where they're, they're intruding upon an area that's not specified in that document, annotate that objection, cooperate with law enforcement, annotate that objection and then talk to your attorney and things will be dealt with in court. But it should be cooperation in that extent. But there is no duty to be reporting people. Fellow members, it's just not common practice. Everywhere I've worshipped I haven't seen that it's a common practice, an ordinary practice, to be inquiring about individual church members' immigration documents. That's just unheard of. I have not seen that before, so I don't think that the law requires churches to begin to do that.
BT Irwin:It's interesting because I'm 49 years old and I've been a civics nerd my whole life and there's been a lot of sensational news lately, and so I started doing my own research and none of this is actually very new. So if we go even back to the 1980s, there was this. This was an issue in the 1980s. My question is has the law changed or is the law the same as it, as it has been all along?
Isaul Verdin:The law has been more or less the same. I would say the substance of law remains the same. There are a few additional, I would say from a policy perspective, allowing law enforcement to have slightly more flexibility in where they can enforce the laws has expanded a little bit, but again there's still discretion. Little bit, but again there's still discretion. There's the power for a government to have discretion and respecting tradition and respecting the Constitution, there's still those powers that have to be considered and weighed as they enforce justice. It's a good idea to touch upon some of the laws that kind of go into this sphere and I think the most common that would be relevant to church audiences would be that there are existing laws that prohibit US citizens and legal permanent residents in the US to obviously to can't smuggle people in illegally into the US, which is common sense, right. You can't transport, which is a little bit less common sense but still logically sound. We can understand. We shouldn't be moving people around that we know are undocumented aliens. The other one that I think is probably in the grayer area is this notion of harboring. The other one that I think is probably in the grayer area is this notion of harboring, which is a little bit in a grayer area, but there are federal criminal statutes that prohibit harboring. What this means is facilitating shelter finances.
Isaul Verdin:Even there have been old cases where the assistance of food to somebody that there's knowledge, that is, does not have the requisite immigration documents Again, to be found guilty and convicted.
Isaul Verdin:The government first would have to be very motivated to prosecute first and second they would have to establish that there's no knowledge, actual knowledge, and there's also this idea or concept of reckless disregard. So the government can prove that there's reckless disregard, that perhaps they can find a conviction against somebody who's harboring or assisting, concealing an alien, an alien Again, if in the ordinary common day practice of being a church organization, a church group that is exercising their faith, of fellowshipping with members and engaging each other for faith-based reasons, and there's no actual knowledge and there's no reason to be asking that, then they're not being reckless because there's no necessary reason to be inquiring about those things and they would be found not guilty under the law in that situation. That's why I really think the possibilities and the probabilities of the numbers of actually the people having that concern are so low that it shouldn't disrupt our way of practicing our faith.
BT Irwin:So I'm thinking of a particular congregation that we've reported on at the Christian Chronicle and I've been to this congregation. They have they give away food and clothing and they give away a lot of food and clothing. Anybody who needs food and clothing. They can come and they can get what they need from this congregation. It's an amazing ministry, but the leader of the ministry, when I visited, shared with me a lot of the people who come to us for food and clothing are migrants. They are, and many of them are very recent. He said we don't ask where they come from, why they're here, whether they're here legally. We just, when people come to us and they need food and they need clothing, we give it to them because that's what we believe Jesus commands us to do.
BT Irwin:Is that, would you say that's a case of being reckless? Does that fall under? Because they're not asking? Right? They're like we don't want to know. But could the government make a case that? Well, you should know, it's your responsibility to know, and if you're not, if you're not finding out, then you're harboring this flow of people.
Isaul Verdin:So the question would be is it reckless? I think that's a legitimate question to ask. The question would be is it reckless? I think that's a legitimate question to ask. It's.
Isaul Verdin:It's definitely in a gray area.
Isaul Verdin:I think the church could, in good faith, put a case forward that they are they're in the business of providing food and clothing to individuals in need.
Isaul Verdin:That in their ordinary practice of conducting those that mission that they are, but it's not typical for that. But there's no discrimination on who receives that. In addition, they're not experts, nor do they have perhaps the manpower, the legal expertise to be interpreting documents of whether somebody is legal, because we can't discriminate on what somebody looks like or how somebody speaks because they may or may not have a legal document to be in the US. Some individuals speak no English, yet they have an authorization to work in the farms and pick our fruit and food that we eat, that we buy in the grocery store, because they have a legal document to do that, and yet they might not have enough money so they might seek some resources from a local church group. So again, I think that that church mission has grounds to defend itself and I find it highly unlikely that the government will prosecute that Again. If they do, you know, there could be some defenses that are valid in that case.
BT Irwin:Continuing with the example of this congregation, could law enforcement conduct an undercover operation there? So when this church is in, you know, when they open up their pantry and their clothing closet and people are coming through to receive what they need, can law enforcement come through undercover and observe what's going on there and who's coming and who's conducting the program? Is that anything that a congregation would need to worry about?
Isaul Verdin:That's a good question. I don't know if the government is actively conducting those kinds of operations at the moment. Certainly they have some resources to conduct undercover operations and I don't know if they've contemplated that, whether they've started doing that, but I think it's within the government's purview to be able to do something like that if they wanted to gather information. I think it's possible.
BT Irwin:And do they have to ask permission, or can they just do it?
Isaul Verdin:That's a good question. I think that perhaps a because, as you know, I'm an immigration lawyer, that's what I practice there are in a case where they wanted to prosecute criminally, there are lawyers that would are experts in federal criminal defense work and I think a lawyer like that would be more capable of knowing the distinctions of the nuances as to the legitimate authority that an investigative undercover officer would have, and perhaps there are defenses to be made in terms of the degree of intrusion on those grounds. But I'm not an expert in that kind of situation.
BT Irwin:Frankly, so is there anything else that folks in our Church of Christ audience really need to know about this subject today?
Isaul Verdin:I think that church leaders should get informed. It doesn't hurt to have a consultation with a local immigration lawyer, maybe with a federal criminal defense lawyer, and just have that resource available. In the low likelihood that something does happen, you have a resource to attend to. But other than that, continue in business as usual. The laws are more or less the same as they have always been. Follow a reasonableness standard. You can't be smuggling, transporting, concealing, hiding foreign nationals that are here illegally. You can't employ foreign nationals that are not authorized, but you can certainly continue to worship with your brothers and sisters no matter what documents they have.
BT Irwin:Esau Verdine is founder and managing attorney of Verdine Law in Dallas, Texas. Esau, thank you for helping us understand immigration law a lot better today.
Isaul Verdin:My pleasure. Thank you, BT.
BT Irwin:Our next guest is Paul Hunker, a partner with DeMott McChesney, kurt Wright and Armendariz, an immigration law practice in Dallas, texas. Before joining the firm last year, paul was the chief counsel for the US Immigration and Customs Enforcement Office in Dallas. Overall, he spent 32 years as an attorney with the Department of Homeland Security and ICE. He's here to tell us what churches and ministries need to know about immigration law enforcement. Now, paul, thank you for being on the show. Thanks, pt. Could you just tell us about your background, tell us about your career, what you've been doing and how you got to the point that you're doing what you do now?
Paul Hunker:and what is that? I graduated from law school in 92, and I went to work for the Immigration and Naturalization Service in Dallas. I had different jobs with them. In 2003, we became the Department of Homeland Security and I became the Chief Counsel of US Immigration Customs Enforcement in Dallas ICE. Ice is the sub-agency of the Department of Justice, so I was Chief Counsel for ICE for about a little more than 20 years in Dallas and then I retired from the federal government in January 2024.
BT Irwin:And I've been in private practice since then, what kind of private practice are you in now? Tell us what you're doing now.
Paul Hunker:So we represent people in all matters of immigration and nationality law helping people get their green cards, helping people naturalize. Removal defense when someone's in removal proceedings and the government's trying to remove them. Defending them in those proceedings. Applying for benefits in immigration proceedings, federal court matters, challenging immigration action in federal courts, business immigration Our firm, our firm does it all.
BT Irwin:And how is that different from what you were doing at Immigration and Customs Enforcement? So you were chief counsel in Dallas For people that are listening who aren't sure what that job entails. What did you do?
Paul Hunker:Basically the ICE attorneys are like the immigration district attorneys, so when a part of Department of Homeland Security wants to remove someone from the United States, we are the attorneys in court that represent the government in those proceedings. So I would supervise our attorneys. I would also sort of the chief legal officer for the special agent in charge in Dallas for Homeland Security Investigations. They investigate immigration and customs crimes. And then I was the attorney for the field office director, who's sort of the head immigration cop in North Texas, sort of giving her advice about legal questions regarding immigration arrest authority detention authority and things like that.
BT Irwin:So is it kind of like you've gone from being on the prosecution to now you're kind of doing defense?
Paul Hunker:That's exactly right. Lawyers are good at switching sides. That's what I did.
BT Irwin:Okay, so the occasion for this episode is that we invited several leaders of Church of Christ congregations to be on the show to talk about how the change in what I'll call the mood— about immigration enforcement in the United States is a matter of concern for them, either because they have many members in their congregations who may be affected by it, or because they have community ministries that serve migrant populations. All but one of the ministers we invited to talk about this either declined or backed out at the last minute because they were afraid of drawing the attention of law enforcement to their congregations and their neighbors. Do they have a good reason to be afraid or concerned right now?
Paul Hunker:Probably not. Ice changed their policy under the Trump administration. They used to have a policy where they wouldn't go into churches unless they got approval from a very high up person, and so they eliminated that. But I don't expect ice to be doing a lot of operations at churches. You know, I don't expect uh, you know I'm catholic. I don't expect ice to show up at the nine o'clock mass and start asking asking for people's papers. I think if they do something related to a church, it's probably because they have some targeted person that they're going after.
Paul Hunker:But, even then, I think it's doubtful they're going to do very much of this. I think there may be this or that incident in the media and the media will cover that and that'll cause people to have, I think, undue fear that their church is going to be targeted. But you know, I have a lot of respect for the ICE officers and the ICE leadership and you know they're being. You know they're marching orders from the Trump administration or be more aggressive and remove more people. But I think it's going to be a rare situation where ICE officers are like going into a church.
BT Irwin:So how does Immigration and Customs Enforcement decide whether a situation is cause for entering a church or a ministry or trying to work with a church or ministry to arrest or investigate someone?
Paul Hunker:Maybe you could analogize schools Often, if the police have a warrant for a student, they may go to the principal. The principal will call the student in and then they may arrest the person. There may be cooperation. Now I think schools are concerned and churches are concerned with this greatly expanded scope of ICE arrests. That ICE may be not just not going after, like, people that have a serious crime or a dangerous, but just being here illegally. And so I think schools and churches are like well, generally I would cooperate with ICE, but like, do I wanna cooperate if they're just gonna go arrest people simply because they're here illegally? And look, people have to be careful that they don't impede law enforcement. That could be a crime.
Paul Hunker:But people also need to understand their rights and we live in a country where the police have limited authority and, regarding a church, generally you know, law enforcement can enter public places. So if anyone can come into a church, come into an area, law enforcement can come in, they don. Anyone can come into a church, come into an area law enforcement can come in. They don't need. They don't need a warrant to do that. If they in plain sight see someone that they probably cause to arrest, they can arrest that person. The church could would be able to ask them to leave if they're even if they're in a public area. What gives them a right to go into the church is that they have a search warrant for a judge that says, hey, there's probable cause that there's criminal activity here or there's records or or people that are here illegally, and they have a warrant that specifically allows them to go into a church.
BT Irwin:I'm thinking of a particular church right now where they feed and clothe hundreds of people every month and folks are constantly. They come every week to get what they need and I was there with one of the leaders of the program and he said a lot of these folks are immigrants. They have recently arrived in the United States. Many of them don't speak the language. He said we don't know how they got here, why they're here, whether they're supposed to be here or not. He said we don't ask questions, we just we feed everyone who comes to us and needs food.
BT Irwin:We, you know, if people need clothing, we give them clothing and that's what we believe the Lord has has required of us as disciples of Jesus Christ. The Lord has required of us as disciples of Jesus Christ. So in a situation like that, I mean, is a church like that exposing itself in any way legally, because they have all these people on their premises on a regular basis? They're not asking for personal information or documentation of immigration status? Is that a situation where law enforcement might say, hey, we're pretty sure there's some people to round up there and what might the church need to do? Because they want to be law-abiding, obviously, but they also want to obey the law of Christ, and so there's a tension there for the leaders of that congregation In that situation generally, what you said.
Paul Hunker:they should be okay. We give some advice to religious nonprofits about matters like this, for example. It's a good practice that they have these neutral criteria. They're helping everyone. They're not asking about immigration matters. Now, of course, in terms of employees, if they're employees of the company, they need to document that the people are here, so that sort of thing is not going to be considering harboring a non-citizen. If a church sort of generally helps people in need, what they have to be careful is like when ICE shows up, that they can't like, oh, go out the back door or do this or do that, because that could be considered shielding from detection.
BT Irwin:And then one concern that a congregation shared with me when we were talking about doing this episode is that, because they serve so many people who are in need of help again just we're talking about food, clothing, sometimes medicine their concern is that, well, if law enforcement finds out about our church on this program, the one we're recording right now, might they set up camp across the street from our church building or set up in the parking lot or asked to come in and see who we're serving, and that would expose our neighbors. It could put them in an unsafe position, or maybe people won't come to us for help anymore because they see such a strong law enforcement presence at our church. Is that anything to be concerned about?
Paul Hunker:I don't believe so. I've not seen that. I've never seen that. I haven't seen that in the Trump administration so far. We do expect a greater expansion of law enforcement, but I doubt that ICE is going to be doing things like that. I mean there's I mean, look under the Biden administration, you know, millions of people were let into the country and I believe that ICE is going to be focused on people who they think they can remove quickly, and I don't believe that they're going to be sort of setting up kind of mobile centers outside of areas where they think there's just especially, certainly, I think, a church related activity or church related program. I don't believe they're going to be doing that sort of thing.
BT Irwin:So do you have any final words of advice to congregational leaders and ministry leaders who are listening, especially the ones that are doing so much work in migrant communities, or many of their members are immigrants themselves. Do you have any final advice or resources that you want to share with them?
Paul Hunker:Well, we're happy to help, just sort of walk them through. It's good that they have. Maybe they have a plan Should ICE show up, what do you do? People can panic and it's good to give people some comfort about okay, here's what happens If ICE shows up. The person at the front desk says, well, let me get the supervisor, Let me have you talk to the person who's in charge and just sort of give people a little comfort of what could happen if ICE shows up.
BT Irwin:Somebody told me recently every congregation ought to consult an immigration attorney. Is that something you recommend, or do you think that's going a little too far?
Paul Hunker:Almost every congregation employs people so they want to make sure that they're doing their immigration paperwork correctly, and we expect to see a greater expansion of ICE going out there and checking immigration paperwork of entities and then advising the entity, making sure they understand their rights. You know, if an ICE agent shows up, you don't have to let them in. If the well, they can come into a public area, but if you want them to leave, you can tell them to leave. They can only really they can only stay there if they have a search warrant. What to do if they have a search warrant? What do you do in that situation? So I think we can be helpful for congregations or an immigration lawyer can be helpful in these matters.
BT Irwin:Paul Hunger. You have been very helpful to us today. Thank you for taking time out of your schedule to be on our show.
Paul Hunker:My pleasure, my pleasure.
BT Irwin:All right, god bless.
Paul Hunker:Yeah, you too, bye.
BT Irwin:For our final segment, we welcome the Christian Chronicles' own opinions editor, Dr Jeremy Beller. Dr Beller is Dean of the College of Bible at Oklahoma Christian University and minister with the Wilshire Church of Christ in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. He's here to help us find some relief in the tension between obedience to God and obedience to government. Dr Beller, is your inbox ready for this?
Dr. Jeremie Beller:I've cleared it out just for this episode All right?
BT Irwin:Well, let's start with the Bible, which is actually the source of tension that a lot of church folks may feel on the topic we're covering today. On one hand, we know what Jesus says about the least of these in the Gospel of Matthew, chapter 25, verses 31 to 46. He makes caring for the needs of homeless, incarcerated, poor, sick people a matter of eternal life or death. Those who want to inherit the kingdom of God will help those who need help. Does Jesus mean only those with documentation, or does he mean anyone and everyone we meet at their point of need? But then we have the Apostle Paul's letter to the Church of Christ in Rome in chapter 13, verse 1. He says that we are to submit to the government because the government is established by God. This sets up a kind of bind for congregations that minister in communities where some folks are not in the United States by legal means. How do those congregations obey both the Gospel of Matthew, chapter 25, verses 31 to 46, and Romans, chapter 13, verse 1?
Dr. Jeremie Beller:On the most fundamental level, though, I think people of faith have to acknowledge that no government has the power to remove the image of God stamped on anyone. So governments are required to protect citizens according to Romans 13, punish evildoers even, but that does not give governments the power to remove the God image that is placed on everyone through creation, and I believe that the legal tradition of the US tries to capture this in some healthy ways, which is the entire concept of due process. Due process is to be sure that the humanity of the individual is treated justly, that you cannot just take someone and whisk them away or deny them some sort of comfort and protection simply because someone says so, that our legal tradition gives us that hope, or that backstop Governments have a responsibility to establish fair and humane laws. I think that's at the heart of what Romans 13 is saying, and it all goes. We often remind people that Romans 13 was not written to a democratically elected official or to people living in a representative republic, and so it raises even the tension, but governments do not have the power to strip human dignity and the image of God for everyone.
Dr. Jeremie Beller:So even the process of enforcing the law, the image of God, must be respected, and so the church needs to work towards the human dignity, and as far as we can do that while honoring our legal customs, I think we are called to do that. But if we are called to decide, do I show humanity and do I minister to the person or do I not because of this law? I think the Christian conviction is we're going to stand with Jesus in this debate. Conviction is we're going to stand with Jesus in this debate and some laws are not fair and some laws aren't just, and we will not participate in the enforcement of ungodly laws.
BT Irwin:At the very beginning of your answer, I actually my imagination took me to an adult Bible class at church, everybody sitting in the room and listening to you talk. Adult Bible class at church, everybody sitting in the room and listening to you talk. I can hear somebody in that adult Bible class listening to you and then responding yeah, it doesn't really matter why they're here or how they got here. They're still breaking the law. So, dr Beller, are you asking us to decide if some people are more guilty than others?
Dr. Jeremie Beller:A child who's been brought here. The dreamer situation is really frustrating because there is a human element to that that often gets overlooked. So people who use this sometimes vitriolic language of they need to go back to their home country. Well, for most children, this is their home country, that's right. They were brought here. Some of them don't even know the language from where they came. They have no support for where they're going back.
Dr. Jeremie Beller:And all this to what end? And that's where I think the humanity of this comes into play. Yeah, so let's round up a bunch of round up, a bunch of college age students who were brought here as infants and send them back to wherever they came from. Now, what are they left with? And if the response is that's not my problem, then we have a problem, because the argument of the New Testament is it is our problem. We minister to souls, not passports and this image. This is where the humanity of this comes in. And so I think, as American citizens, when we are placed in a situation to give voice and support to how laws are made and who is making those laws, I think this is where it becomes critical that we exercise that voice, and when we see a legal statute or we listen to a debate in Congress. Christians should exercise their voice and say no, this. We have to show humanity to these situations and I even think that the asylum seekers we'll mention.
Dr. Jeremie Beller:A little bit maybe about how Scripture even frames the idea of alien and sojourner, but you know, people who are seeking safety from an oppressive regime and fleeing for safety. Isn't that the heart of the gospel? To provide peace and comfort? Isn't that the heart of the gospel, to provide peace and comfort? Um, and, yes, there should be an orderly process, but the fact that our process is so broken and not being addressed is a moral issue in and of itself and unfortunately, as we've seen time and time again, it's lost in a political power debate, so that a bill is proposed but while it has the support of the majority of people, if someone wants it to be an election issue, we will oppose that bill, even though both sides of the party agree that this is the humane and moves us forward.
Dr. Jeremie Beller:Well, we're sacrificing what's right for what gets me power, and I think that's where Christians have to be adamant that the humanity and fair treatment of people has to come above and beyond political process. So, people who are afraid to vote on a bill or to suggest legislation, because what will that do to our power base? Well, what power we're given is to be used for the just and fair treatment of people, and I think I believe governments have every right to establish laws for the protection of people. Borders and boundaries in our modern setting are a concern of modern governments. It's not the concern of the kingdom of God, which is comprised of every nation, tribe and tongue, and that's where I think it questions who are we loyal to? Above all else, that the kingdom of God is not defined by boundaries and borders. Now, earthly governments are, and God, I think Romans 13 is building a framework, but compassion does not. It does not require a passport.
BT Irwin:Let's say we're a congregation and there are members of our congregation that are not from the United States and we may not know exactly how they got here. Or we are doing a lot of work among migrant communities, both at our facility and offsite, and law enforcement comes around and says hey, we want, we want to set up shop in your parking lot, or we want to come into your clothing giveaway and see who's taking clothes and food here, or we want to. You know, we want to come into your facility and see who's here. Do we have biblical grounds to refuse that request from law enforcement?
Dr. Jeremie Beller:Our default setting as Christians should be yes, we support and we follow civil laws. That should be our default setting, and I think, as you read 1 Peter, one of the questions that Peter was helping the Christians struggle with is how do you serve as a Christian in an environment that is non-Christian? And he will say love the brotherhood, honor the king. He'll constantly remind them live in such a way that, when people see what you're doing, they'll glorify God. But Peter also has kind of. This underlying theme is don't do things to stand out and make yourself a target. However, there are times Peter would say if any man suffers as a Christian, don't let him be ashamed. There are times when that Christianity in and of itself is going to put a target on you. But Peter says don't put a target on yourself unduly. If any man suffers, let it be for doing what's right and not wrong. So our default setting should always be of course we support and we work alongside of our civil authorities, but again where we started, when that trumps our basic treatment of the humanity of mercy and grace. Now we've got a problem. On this specific question, though, should we cooperate with authorities? I would go Paul and Romans in Acts 16 on this as a practical matter. Act 16 on this as a practical matter.
Dr. Jeremie Beller:For now at least, we're still blessed to live in a country with structure and laws and I'm not a legal scholar by any means. But our Fourth Amendment, and this probable cause, is there for a reason to stop suspicious, a suspicion of people. My concern about saying, yeah, you can come just monitor and just watch, is that not just for the practical matter of you know, we're here to catch people? It's you are creating a suspicious atmosphere unnecessarily and that, to me, is problematic. You know, we we had an event at our church building one time with our neighbors. We live in a section eight housing low income, high crime rate, and we allowed some people from an apartment complex to use our church building for a meeting and there was this kind of debate on should we have a strong police presence there to send a signal. What signal are we trying to send, you know?
Dr. Jeremie Beller:And so I think, if, if they follow the law, as our tradition in America is, that there is probable cause for a reason, I do think we should participate as best we can, while still clinging to the humanity and fair treatment of people, but just some broad general we can, while still clinging to the humanity and fair treatment of people, but just some broad general. We know there are a lot of immigrants here and we want to sit and just kind of monitor. I do think in our legal tradition and consistent with, say, act 16, is to say no, our legal tradition says you need probable cause to do these things and we don't want to create an atmosphere of suspicion that prevents us from ministering to people because they're afraid without a probable cause. Context Now again, I'm not a legal scholar but I just think on a practical level, I think the church should be very careful to say you guys take care of that, but you follow our own procedures in legal tradition and we're going to minister without asking those questions.
BT Irwin:Well. Dr Beller, thank you for answering the hard questions today. I think you did a great job. Thank you, bt. Always an honor. That's all for this time.
BT Irwin:Thank you again to each of our guests Esau Verdine, paul Hunker and Dr Jeremy Beller, and thanks to you, the listener, for engaging this topic with an open mind. You'll find links to resources and stories in the show notes. We hope that something you heard in this episode encouraged, enlightened or enriched you in some way. If it did, please thank God and pay it forward. Subscribe to this podcast and share it with a friend. Recommend and review it wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Your subscription, recommendation and review help us reach more people. Please send your comments, ideas and suggestions to podcast at christianchronicleorg and don't forget our ministry to inform and inspire Christians and congregations around the world is a non-profit ministry that relies on your generosity. So if you like the show and you want to keep it going and make it better, please make a tax-deductible gift to the Christian Chronicle at christianchronicleorg.
BT Irwin:The Christian Chronicle podcast is a production of the Christian Chronicle Incorporated, informing and inspiring Church of Christ congregations, members and ministries around the world since 1943. The Christian Chronicle's managing editor is Audrey Jackson, editor-in-chief Bobby Ross Jr, and executive director and CEO Eric Trigestad. The Christian Chronicle is written, directed, hosted and edited by BT Irwin and is produced by James Flanagan at Podcast your Voice Studios in the Motor City, detroit, michigan, usa. Until next time, may grace and peace be yours in abundance.