The Christian Chronicle Podcast
The Christian Chronicle Podcast explores the news and stories shaping Church of Christ congregations and members around the world.
The Christian Chronicle Podcast
Episode 126: Church-ing while Black (Barron Jones)
For Christians who are Black, life in the Church of Christ in the United States is an experience that is formed by the experience of being Black. In other words, each human being encounters life (and church) through her or his experiences. Likewise, the world (and often the church) perceives human beings through the assumptions that form about certain groups of people.
Barron Jones (host of the Unfiltered Crossroads Podcast and the preaching team at Holgate Street Church of Christ in Seattle, Washington) talks about why being Black in the Church of Christ in the United States is a unique experience that often leaves Christians who are Black feeling isolation and pressure among their own brothers and sisters in Christ. Jones makes the case that a relentless pursuit of the gospel and the truth will well serve all Christians now.
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Family and friends, neighbors and, most of all, strangers. Welcome to the Christian Chronicle Podcast. We're bringing you the stories shaping Church of Christ, congregations and members around the world. I'm BT Irwin. May what you are about to hear bless you and honor God.
BT Irwin:The biblical story of God and the people of God is a story of constant movement. God calls the patriarchs Abraham, isaac and Jacob to wander as aliens among people in places that are not their own. The children of Israel sojourn as slaves in Egypt for hundreds of years. Later, god wanders in the wilderness with Israel for two generations until they come to the promised land. But once there, they enjoy being settled and secure for only about a hundred years out of their entire history in that land. The rest of the time they are harassed and often displaced, until Assyria and Babylon carry them off into exile. Thus begins the Jewish diaspora of that time. It is during this diaspora that Jesus is born and lives his public life as a homeless itinerant preacher with quote no place to lay his head. End quote.
BT Irwin:And our ancestors in the Christian faith often found themselves persecuted and pushed out, living as pilgrims and refugees on the margins of Roman society. In sum, the Bible portrays God and God's people as outsiders In the Bible. This mostly keeps them far from cultural, economic and political power. But Jesus reveals a kind of power that is greater than any power we are familiar with on earth. The greatest display and expression of that power is Jesus' death on a cross, a form of execution that Rome invented for foreigners and slaves. And what is this power that Jesus reveals? It is sacrificial, self-emptying love that arises from complete faith and hope in God. Jesus is able and willing to sacrifice himself for sinful humanity because he is certain that God will vindicate him by raising him from the dead. This complete confidence in God is what emboldens Jesus to speak the truth in love, an action that gets him into trouble with everyone, including his own family and friends.
BT Irwin:I am convinced that because Jesus does not join any faction, all factions come to fear him and must conspire to put him to death. No faction can control or neutralize Jesus, so all factions have no choice but to gang up on him. Jesus doesn't set out to antagonize anyone, but to simply speak the truth in love, and that doesn't make sense to anyone who grows up in a world that teaches us to pick sides and fight for our own side, right or wrong. Today, we will hear from an apprentice and student of Jesus Christ who is calling us to pick sides and fight for our own side, right or wrong. Today, we will hear from an apprentice and student of Jesus Christ who is calling us to follow the example of Jesus that is speaking the truth in love, an act that will often make us exiles and outsiders in a culture that insists that we must pick sides and fight, fight, fight.
BT Irwin:Barron Jones is a native of Louisiana and Mississippi, a graduate of Lipscomb University in Nashville, tennessee, and a member of the Holgate Street Church of Christ in Seattle, washington, where he is part of the preaching team. He hosts a YouTube channel that explores race, religion and politics. You know bland stuff. He recently published a Christian Chronicle op-ed Stuck in the Middle with Jesus, why Black Christians in America Feel Alienated from Cultural Camps on Either Side and what Comes Next.
Barron Jones:He's here with us now, brother Barron, welcome BT good morning, afternoon or whatever time it is for our listeners who are listening to us and watching Glad to be here, Excited to be a part of this discussion today.
BT Irwin:I will say that's an enthusiastic greeting for a guy who's up very early on the West Coast.
Barron Jones:I will say that's an enthusiastic greeting for a guy who's up very early. On the West Coast, things get started sometimes earlier than we planned, but hey, I'm happy to be here and I think it's going to be a fruitful discussion. So thanks for having me.
BT Irwin:You're wise enough to know that if you put your name on a column like yours, some people are going to disagree strongly or they may even say mean things about you. What happened that you decided that any harsh reactions would not be as bad as not publishing your column? What made you do it?
Barron Jones:If we're going to be spiritual leaders, right. And if we're going to represent someone who himself was killed for what he said, right. I mean, they killed Jesus for what he did, but it was really a lot for what he said. You know, I just don't think we should be overly concerned if someone's going to say something mean about a column that I submitted for publication. Like, I think, in comparison to some of the things that Jesus and the disciples suffered, that's not even, I think, worthy of, of complaining about. You know, I think that there are far too many expressions of Christianity today where we are overly concerned about the response. And it's interesting, like you know, you and I have a similar background as far as upbringing, right, and one of the things they always told us was like don't be afraid to stand up for what you believe in the world, and you go to school and you be strong and you, you know, whatever the consequences. But it's like we haven't taken that same mindset when it comes to dealing with the brotherhood, dealing with my brothers who I sit in the pew, with churches that I preach to, and brotherhood politics and brotherhood politics. I just think if you're going to be a spiritual leader, you simply can't have too much concern for your reputation, right? It doesn't mean that you intentionally would stain your reputation. But my concern in speaking and writing and preaching as a spiritual leader cannot be to try to say things and say them in such a way that my primary concern is to keep you know, keep people happy or to keep them comfortable.
Barron Jones:You know, I wrote the piece because I think silence is a much worse offense than actually sharing how we truly believe within a context of love. And I have to check my heart, bt. You know, I don't want to speak out of bitterness, I don't want to a context of love. Now, I have to check my heart, bt. I don't want to speak out of bitterness, I don't want to speak out of rebellion. I think there's a contrarian nature in me, so I have to make sure I'm not speaking just to be contrarian, but I truly believe that some of these things have to be shared and said, not necessarily speaking for all black people, but as a black minister of the gospel speaking things that could potentially help a lot of black people who can identify with some of the things that they were said and find themselves in similar situations, if that's helpful.
BT Irwin:From the column it sounds like and you just mentioned this here you have personal experience feeling like an outsider from both what you call the quote black First Movement end quote. And quote white Christian spaces end quote. What would you be willing to share about those experiences of feeling like an outsider in each?
Barron Jones:I was raised in a household that taught and lived out not just taught but lived out the idea we are all of God's children. My parents modeled that we had fellowship with black, that we had fellowship with black churches. We had fellowship with predominantly white churches. We were taught to love, accept and serve everyone in the kingdom of God, and I still hold on to that. And I mention that because sometimes, when people read a single article like this from someone that they do not know, they start making assumptions about how I would view Christian unity or do I even still believe in cross-racial fellowship within the church. So I want to make it clear I deeply believe those things and I want to cut someone off at the cut from even trying to say that reading something that they don't like and maybe assuming that someone doesn't like and maybe assuming that someone doesn't believe in unity or that we shouldn't deal with these racial tensions. So what I can to your question specifically, though, you know what I can say about the Black First movement is that I identify with a lot of the critiques that they have about society and the dominant society and what the dominance of white society has done to black people historically in this country, including religion, and how vestiges of that still remain today. We're not saying it's the same, but that things still remain that have been built into the DNA of America that we need to be talking about and continuing to work through those of us who are believers in the spirit of love advancing the kingdom of God as we talk about those things. So you know, I find a disconnect with the movement because, again, I believe in working with my white brothers and sisters. I believe in equal and shared leadership, working together and we need to value each other's input and all of those things. And that's kind of where we we lose our brothers in the Black First movement, where they're really not that concerned with unity and working together and fostering that relationship with our white brothers and sisters.
Barron Jones:I'll be honest with you, BT. I will say this I am a little hesitant to share personal experiences, not because I'm afraid to share them or ashamed to share them, but because I have found that personal experiences as anecdotes this is my observation often don't move the conversation forward. In fact, what I find typically happens is people hear your examples and then they immediately go looking for holes in what you say, Instead of actually letting what you say resonate with them, that there might be an experience of truth outside of their experience, because if they have not experienced it, how could it actually be true? How could it actually be true? Right? And so telling a story, I think, oftentimes does the opposite of what we would hope that it would do and people can kind of dismiss it as an exception. See, it happened to you instead of what I'm claiming as a small narrative, as part of a larger picture that is continuing to happen. Right, If I, as your brother in Christ, say this is I write this article, BT, and I say this is how I'm feeling, like that should be enough.
Barron Jones:I shouldn't need to really give you any stories or histories behind it to buttress it or to make it stand up for your approval. Because I am your brother in Christ, why would you think I needed to give you anything beyond what I say, unless you, from the get-go, question my motives, questioning my intentions, which I know a lot of people do, and most people who read the article don't know me. But you do know the faith that I profess and a lot of people have spoken in their churches. You've allowed me to preach in your pulpits and I give a lesson and you say amen. But then if I say something about race relations in the church and in America, all of a sudden now I need personal examples for you to buy into what I'm saying I find that a lot of times when we tell stories, what people will do is they'll go and they'll look, they'll dismiss eight stories, They'll dismiss nine stories that black people tell, They'll go find one black person who will support their cause.
Barron Jones:So they will dismiss the nine, They'll dismiss the eight and they'll go find one and they'll say see, what you're saying can't be true, because Johnny, Mary, Sue, over here, they don't have that experience. But what about the eight that just told you that all your, that your brothers and sisters in Christ, they just told you they have that experience. I have very low expectations that any experiences that I could share, unfortunately, would move the conversation. The way that I think us just trusting each other, the way that I think us just trusting each other, loving each other and taking for granted that your intentions and that your actions are truly genuine, that's what's going to move the conversation forward, and then we can share stories to say, wow, brother, I'm sorry that that happened to you and that's going to help. You know that's going to help me be reflective and think, but I think we have to. We're kind of getting the cart before the horse. We want to lead with experiences and we really have to lead with. What type of relationship do black Christians and white Christians have in churches of Christ that can set the stage so that when black Christians talk about their experiences in your churches, you don't run and try to find other black people that you don't even know on Fox News or CNN that are going to say something that you agree with. Meanwhile, the black person that is in your church that you allow to preach in your pulpit, you would discount what they say.
Barron Jones:Now, back in 2015, I was living in San Antonio, Texas in 2015 at that time and I was arrested in January of 2015 for driving while intoxicated in San Antonio Texas and was arrested, put in the back of a patrol car, taken down to the station, taken down to the station and they took my blood by force as a part of the arrest process. Well, BT, what that officer did not know. White officer and I bring up race only because we're talking about policing in America. So if anyone doesn't think race is a part of that. We got to get into history to understand facts right.
Barron Jones:I don't know the gentleman personally. All I know is he was white, I was black, I got taken down to jail. But what he did not know about me is that I was a church boy, BT. He had arrested a church boy. He had put in the report he smelled a moderate amount of intoxicants on my person, but he did not know, BT, that I was a church boy. Ironically, at the time, BT, I was out driving Uber, so I was actually taking drunk people off of the streets at the time I was driving for Uber.
Barron Jones:at the time when he pulled me over and arrested me he put in the report I smelled a moderate amount of intoxicants on his person. Now you and I have similar upbringings, bt. So we're a good Church of Christ boy. So we were raised. We were told not only do you not get drunk, bt, you don't touch the stuff. That's the environment that I was raised in. So I have never consumed alcohol in my life. He didn't know that To him I was just another Black person. I feel that he thought he could take down and he's going to find something or something will stick. Well, they took my blood. So obviously, when the blood work came back, the charges were dropped because there was no alcohol in my system.
Barron Jones:But between the time that I was arrested and the time that my blood work came back and the case was dropped and word of my arrest got out, to my dismay I found that some of my white brothers and sisters, almost from the jump, either took the word of the police officer or questioned why something like that would happen to me in a situation like that and, brother, that hurt because I've preached in your pulpits. You've known me since I was yea high. You know my family, so why don't I get the benefit of the doubt? Even in our judicial system it's innocent until proven guilty. So what should it be within the church, where we have all been baptized into the body of Christ and have all been made to drink of that one spirit? I'm going to get the preacher to quote scripture. But what should it be in the church if in the court of law it's innocent until proven guilty? Now, I don't know the white police officer's heart. I don't know why some of my white brothers and sisters felt led to believe him quickly or were open to the idea more than they believed me, you know.
Barron Jones:And race is one of those tricky things, because we're not in a time where people are openly espousing racism, even though I see that actually growing, unfortunately. But I'm not here to judge anybody's heart or intentions. I can only say, as a black Christian who has moved in many white dominated spaces in our country and in religion and in a law enforcement system that has historically been designed to entrap black people, in a situation where an officer said he smelled alcohol on my person, which I know was not true in the moment that he said it, he calls himself a professional and the blood work came back in my favor. It's hurtful that I had to hear those things expressed. So that's just one experience. I had to hear those things expressed, so that's just one experience. This is one I could tell others. I've had guns pulled on me driving a car. I've never done anything. You talk to the black people in your churches.
BT Irwin:They have stories, but are those stories really going to move you? Yeah, one of the things that I've heard from some of my friends in churches that I've attended still attend to this day are very similar to what you say. It's that I don't understand why people that have worshiped with me for 10, 20, 30 years I've entrusted me with their to be an elder or to preach, or to shepherd them or have entrusted me with their kids and youth group. I don't understand why they don't believe me when I tell them certain things about my experience and that's been something that I've heard, a lament that I've heard from many people over the years. I don't know why I'm so trusted in some ways, but when I talk about my experience as a person of color, that's when my brothers and sisters don't believe me anymore.
Barron Jones:We as black Christians can get access and approval in white dominated spaces, when what we are saying is in line with what those spaces agree with and that is the gospel, right. And so you know, this is where, like in the black first movement, they would say yeah, you know those white people at those churches, they only like you because you're saying what they want you to say. Well, I mean, I'm saying what I want to say, which is the gospel. I believe in the gospel. I believe in furthering the kingdom of God on Earth. I believe in the message of Jesus of Nazareth that came as king of the Jews, light unto the Gentiles, light unto us all, and that he is calling us to work together and to be together.
Barron Jones:So it's not just that black Christians and white dominated spaces are saying things that white people like to hear. We are saying things that we believe about the gospel that happen to coincide with what white brothers and sisters also believe about the gospel. When black people start to say things that are not supported by those spaces, that we find the alienation that comes with that, if we actually choose to say anything, because we know that saying something is going to jeopardize the relationship that has been built based upon the things that we do agree on, which is the gospel. Well, someone says, well, you have to bring up race. Well, race relations is part of the gospel. It's just not a part of the gospel that is welcomed openly.
Barron Jones:I think we would hope that we have built up a relationship so that when we do say something, it does not jeopardize the 15, 20, 25 years, the leadership, the preaching, all of the things that we have done together. We would hope that when we say something that would come across to some of our white brothers and sisters as like, why would they say that? Or why would you, outside of their experience or knowledge or grasp of what the truth might be, how could our take on this one issue denigrate, jeopardize, diminish, do anything to what we to all of these other areas? So this is why a lot of black Christians really won't say that much.
Barron Jones:My white brothers and sisters who are church leaders, just I would respectfully say to you directly it's not about how you feel about the article, it's about the black people in your spaces, in your churches. What do they think about what I wrote and do they feel safe enough to say what that brother wrote in the article Amen Resonates with me. They're not condemning your churches to hell. They're in your churches, they're in fellowship with you.
BT Irwin:I want to point out one thing about your column that is refreshing to me. It's when you say that this isn't a quote call to centrism or neutrality, end quote. And I like that because I feel that many times, when we talk about being moderate or standing on the middle ground, what we really mean is that we avoid talking about things on which we disagree. We pretend that our disagreements don't exist, just for the sake of getting along. And you're explicit that you're not calling for this. You're calling for what you call quote prophetic clarity, end quote. What?
Barron Jones:do you mean by that? We want a church that's theologically sound, theologically healthy, spiritually healthy. So you know, mainstream doesn't mean correct, neutral doesn't mean righteous and centrist doesn't mean prophetic. So I think we're going to be serious about the truth. The truth has to be my starting point, right, and unity should come after. I don't even think unity should be the starting point. The starting point should be truth, and then let's let us unite around what the truth is.
Barron Jones:Now, finding out what truth is and discerning truth is a lifelong endeavor. It's not a place where we get to and that we hold and maintain, but it is something that we are constantly doing. Until God transitions us to another existence. We are always searching and discerning what the truth is. In a very general sense, I understand that there are major truths that don't change, but life is very dynamic and there's a lot of crevices and things in life that we got to figure out and we're always on that journey. So I would say, you know, prophetic being prophetic is that we don't walk away from tension. We expect tension, and prophetic clarity calls us to speak truth even when it's uncomfortable, even when it jeopardizes theological comfort. Comfortable even when it jeopardizes theological comfort. Prophetic clarity means speaking when it jeopardizes political alignment, financial security, long-held assumptions, right. That's what I mean by prophetic clarity and that's why it's dangerous to some people, because prophetic clarity can disrupt. It challenges, it exposes what we've always allowed to remain unexamined, unchallenged in our churches, especially when it comes to power, influence and race.
BT Irwin:I think I want to clear something up here for people listening, because this may not be clear to some folks. When a lot of people in our pews hear prophet, they think of one who predicts the future. When you talk about prophetic clarity or speaking with prophetic voice, I think you mean more than that. So could you just for the sake of everyone listening here, when you talk about what it means to speak prophetically, what is it that you're saying?
Barron Jones:Probably for our people. You know, preaching would be a much more term that, a term that would much more easily gender up the word picture ideas that we want here. We want someone who is bringing forth the word of God as it should be for the people of God in a particular time and place, shaped by the God who is giving them the word.
BT Irwin:I think of prophecy as telling the truth and reflecting the truth about God, and also reflecting to people the truth about themselves, so holding up a mirror to people so that they can see themselves more truly. You talk about the gospel to people so that they can see themselves more truly. You talk about the gospel and that's where I think some people in the pews may not track with you anymore, because they say well, what does the color of someone's skin have to do with choosing Jesus? What does the color of someone's skin have to do with the gospel? So could you connect those dots for people that still don't follow where you're leading?
Barron Jones:I think part of the difficulty in embracing what I'm trying to convey by an idea like prophetic clarity actually stems from how churches of Christ have historically understood spirituality right. So you know, over time our focus has often been less about transforming ourselves, bt, and more about correcting others. So we pour we've poured a lot of enormous energy into learning doctrines, convincing others why what they might be saying or doing might not be in accordance with scripture right. We have spent far less time examining how we need to grow, how we need to repent, how we ourselves need to be transformed, and I think that is more kind of the original spirit of the early participants of the movement. Like it began with the desire to restore something that they felt like was more Christlike and more biblical. But somewhere along the way that vision, I think, shifted and it became about defending positions, pointing out flaws in others. So now this is why I think we struggle with an idea of prophetic clarity, because it puts us under the spotlight. It puts our churches under the spotlight, it puts our theology under the spotlight and we, I don't think, really know what to do with that. As a fellowship we have not really cultivated the muscle for repentance. I hate to say it, but we can repent of that. Let us repent of not cultivating the muscle for repentance.
Barron Jones:We've not practiced saying we were wrong. We need to grow, we need to do better, because somehow we think it jeopardizes the work that we've done up until this point. So we've got to get. We've got to get beyond that. This is exactly what prophetic clarity leads to. Got to get beyond that. This is exactly what prophetic clarity leads to. It leads to repentance. Bt a church that can join hands together, black brothers and white brothers, and say we repent. It's going to require, I think, major spiritual and psychological shift that we have to be a part of, because we've just been in the habit of telling everybody else what to do. But I think, if we were to be honest with ourselves, we have a lot of work that we need to do, especially when it comes to racism, unity and love across racial lines. The goal is not condemnation.
BT Irwin:When you were talking about our history, our heritage, our tradition in the Church of Christ. Some people don't like that word, but one of the things I was thinking about is that we are a very individual. We are individualistic when it comes to the gospel, and so when you were talking about how we would be outward focused, what everyone else is maybe doing wrong, that we're doing right, and we go into a defensive posture, I was thinking we interpret that through an individual level. So an example would be well, I go to the right church that does the right things and doesn't do the wrong things, so I'm safe, I'm okay because I'm a member of that church and I don't drink, I don't smoke, I don't swear, I don't do drugs, I don't have sex outside of marriage Us good Church of Christ kids. We know all the don'ts. And so as an individual and I'm speaking from my own experience I know I'm in the right church that does the right things and doesn't do the wrong things. I know that I don't do those things that I'm not supposed to do and I'm working every day to grow in my relationship with Jesus. So I'm reading my Bible, I'm spending time in prayer, I'm giving money when I go to church and then, when this idea of racism comes into the picture, I can see and I'm now speaking from experience I can tell you how it was confusing to me A long time ago because I thought, well, I'm at the right church, I do the right things, not the wrong. Well, I'm at the right church, I do the right things, not the wrong things, I do all the right things. And, frankly, where I grew up, I I don't know any black people.
BT Irwin:So, as an individual, I think this is not something that I need to think about or care about at all.
BT Irwin:It just has nothing to do with me, because I'm trying to get to heaven and I'm doing all these things to get to heaven, and I'm doing all these things to get to heaven and I'm avoiding these things.
BT Irwin:And so I feel like a lot of our people in the pews interpret life through that individualistic lens, and I think that's where a lot of us get stuck is that when we start talking about the things that you've brought forward in your column and I've had white Christians say this to me many, many times in life that has nothing to do with me, that doesn't concern me at all, that's not a problem for me, and what they mean is I'm not a racist, right? That's not a problem for me because they're thinking about themselves as one individual trying to get to heaven and they're like I've never had the opportunity to be racist or that's just not something that I feel in my heart, so it's, it's no concern of mine, baron, why do you keep bringing this up to me? You see, I'm fine, I'm good, I'm going to heaven by the grace of God. Why are you insisting on making this something that we need, a problem that we need to deal with?
Barron Jones:It's always interesting how the apostolic church handled the Grecian widows in Acts 6. Can you imagine some of the Hebraic, jerusalem, judea centered Christians who said they got nothing to do with me? That's them. They got a problem with how things are playing out. I ain't got nothing to do with me because I'm good, me and God, I've been baptized in Christ, I'm saved, I'm going to heaven. So, like some of the things that we say right and that individualistic mindset that you talked about, can we imagine what that would sound like when you have the Grecian widows who say, hey, hold up, hold up, hold up. We don't feel like things are fair. We ain't about to leave the body of Christ, we ain't. We're not accusing leadership, we're just saying, hey, you know, let's talk about this. Take a look at it.
Barron Jones:And I can easily see some Christians, some of the ones who were on the Hebraic side, being very dismissive, saying it has nothing to do with them, that they ain't got nothing against. No, grecian widow Some of my favorite friends are Grecian widows. I mean, we can go with all of the sayings that we hear, right, okay. But the leaders said, oh, no, okay, we're going to take this complaint seriously. I love the fact that there seemed to be like oh, because the Grecian widows said it, they are believable. We're going to look into this, we're going to follow up, we're going to come up with a solution.
Barron Jones:The people that are going to be executing the solution seem to be of Greek influence themselves. So to someone who feels like this discussion doesn't concern them, I would just say go back and read that text and ask yourself if your response to what black brothers and sisters in Christ are sharing with you, if your response would fit within the context of how the apostolic leadership responded in Act six. And look at what they did. Yeah, they didn't accuse the Grecian widows of being victims living in the past, having an axe to grind a chip on their shoulder, past having an ax to grind a chip on their shoulder. They took their complaints seriously and they came up with a solution together.
BT Irwin:I just going through the feedback that came in after we published your column, I found a retort that is common pretty much every time we publish something like this, and that is being black or white should not matter at all. Quote for you are all one in Christ Jesus. End quote. Galatians, chapter three, verse 28. That comes up almost every time. As an apprentice and student of Jesus Christ and a member of his body, why does being black matter to you? Nonetheless, why do you hope it matters to brothers and sisters in Christ who are not black?
Barron Jones:Wow, you know, being black or white should not matter. Right, that's the, that's the brother. You know we don't live in the should nots, brother. I'm sorry, like I'm trying, I got to live in this real world out here. Being black or white should not matter.
Barron Jones:I understand that statement to be aspirational. It reflects the kind of world that we hope to live in. But I am trying to live in the world that is Brother BT, and the world that is, especially in America, is a world where race matters. It has always mattered in America and it's still. All we're saying is it still does. That's all that column is saying is that in white dominated Christian spaces, race still matters Doesn't mean that y'all are not Christians, doesn't mean that we won't follow your leadership. Don't make the article say what it's not saying. We're saying race still matters Doesn't mean that y'all are not Christians, doesn't mean that we won't follow your leadership. Don't make the article say what it's not saying. We're saying race still matters.
Barron Jones:So we aspire, as Dr King said, aspire to be judged by the content of our. We aspire to have a country and to have a church where being black or white should not matter. But because you say that, you think that that's how it is. No-transcript. I pray for that vision, I serve and I preach and I minister towards that vision, which is what bringing about the kingdom of God on Earth and in this, this society, where race should not matter, should be part of that kingdom that we hope and that we're praying, that we're working, is coming, you know, but what I cannot do is pretend that that the vision has already arrived, because black people in this country, in this society, we have inherited A country and a church, bt, where race determines more than just perception. It can affect our dignity, our safety, our opportunities, our access to justice and, yes, even our standing in spiritual and religious places. And the church, unfortunately, is not separate from society. The church exists within society, which means the effects of race and racism are not erased just because we walk through the church doors.
Barron Jones:Brother and some white people woke up one day and said they don't see color. That does not change reality, because a few white people in our churches are saying that Black Christians know this, we know this, we lived it right. We experience what it feels like to walk into these spaces and wonder if we're being seen, being fully heard, being fully embraced Right, and it's it's complex, very complex situation. So you know, to your question, yes, my blackness matters. It doesn't matter because I want it to matter. It matters because the American system was built on making it matter. That's history. And you know we get from housing to education to law enforcement, health care, economics, transportation, religion. You can't name me a segment of American society where race didn't play a part in the history of this country. It has been baked into the DNA of this country. That was not the doing of Black people. Your Black brothers and sisters didn't do that. It was the doing of those who created those systems. And all we're saying is maybe the work of undoing all of that is undone, maybe that work is unfinished and we need to continue to openly and willingly be a part of that work.
Barron Jones:Now I will say this because you know people will use Galatians man. People make Galatians 3.28, dog. They make that verse do some work. I mean, they make that verse do some heavy lifting. Right? The verse gets thrown around a lot of times in these type of conversations as if it cancels, as if that verse cancels out the reality of what people live through. Now the verse is beautiful and it's powerful. It talks about unity.
Barron Jones:But I have to say this that verse, beachy, did not stop White slaveholders from brutalizing black people. That verse did not stop Jim Crow from being instituted. That verse did not stop 250 years of slavery plus 100 years of Jim Crow, mass incarceration, police brutality and the war against black users of drugs. That verse didn't stop all of that. It did not stop black Christians from being excluded from white congregations and not even to want black Christians to read the Bible for fear that they would get a hold of a few passages about justice. Galatians 3.28 didn't stop all of that. It did not stop the silence of the church during lynchings or the resistance to integration. So I would respectfully say, as a minister of the gospel and as one that is always looking at scripture and how to exegete it and apply it, let us not misuse Galatians 3.28 to shut down black voices like these Grecian widows who all we're saying is sometimes it doesn't seem fair, that's all we're saying. People, we get a little reckless in using that verse because we just don't like what somebody wrote or what they're saying about a certain issue.
Barron Jones:So, yeah, you know, my blackness matters because God created me in it.
Barron Jones:It's part of my humanity.
Barron Jones:It's part of my story but, more importantly, it affects how I am seen in America and even in my own church, if I'm, if I'm treated well or mistreated or misunderstood or understood properly and all of it matters.
Barron Jones:Right, and I long for the day. May God speed the day when my blackness does not carry the social and political and religious consequences that it carries, does not carry the social and political and religious consequences that it carries. May God speed the day when I can walk into any space, not only in America but in our churches, and be received fully in my humanity without having the second guess. If my race is affecting how I'm being perceived or people have made judgments about me politically just because of the color of my skin. Before I even open up my mouth to say God bless you, brother and Jesus, you already have an idea about who I am. May God speed the day. But that day, brother, is not here yet in 2025. I don't believe it is and I'm asking my white brothers and sisters to join me in the circle of repentance so that God can bring about that day.
BT Irwin:I kind of want to give you an opportunity to bring it back to the gospel again, because you are speaking to us as a minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ and you're speaking to all of us here in the United States, regardless of the color of our skin and the culture from which we come. We have listeners in 120 countries around the world, so there are Christians everywhere in the world listening to you, a minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and I want to give you the opportunity to tie your column and everything you've said today back to what is the good news for humanity. What is it that we are called to do and respond to together as believers in Jesus Christ? Yeah.
Barron Jones:You're asking me to extend the invitation when you ask a question like that because that's what we're bringing all together and say you know, god is doing a great thing, he's bringing about something great. But, ben, are you thinking with Galatians 3.28? Yeah, you know, I think. Look at Paul man and just the way he, the way he ministered, was the way he ministered in attempting to bring together the polarizing ends of the Jew-Gentile relationship Supports your interpretation of Galatians 3.28, which is not all the same or alike, but working together within one body. That's the hard way to do it. That's why he had so many issues and problems to deal with in his churches. Right so the Acts 15 council that was the easy part.
Barron Jones:We often think that that was a difficult decision that they had to make. Do the Gentiles have to be circumcised? That came together and had a meeting man. Church meetings sometimes as contiguous as they can get. We all can have church meetings and make decisions. They had a church meeting and make decisions and they had the Holy Spirit on their side in a very strong way, which I believe we haven't. Holy Spirit on their side in a very strong way, which I believe we haven't, but they had them in a very strong way. They made a church decision. Then you see Paul now having to live in the reality of that decision. That's the letters and that's the problems that he had to deal with.
Barron Jones:That was the hard way to do. It is to try to let Jews be Jews and the Gentiles to basically be Gentiles, with a few rules they had to follow and in the King James Version says fare ye. Well, if you do this, they didn't, man, that was very aspirational. They had a lot. Paul had a lot of problems. Paul was living, creating theology in the moment, trying to keep that thing together. So I think I'll just say you know, I'm not even riffing on what you said, just saying, yeah, man, if you look at the life of Paul, the way that he tried to live out the gospel in his churches only proved, proves, I think, your interpretation of Galatians 328, which is that God is not trying to make us alike. He wants us to be together and be ourselves, which is different and that is a high calling, for very different reasons for us in 2025 than for them, but in many respects no less difficult.
Barron Jones:We stand perpetually on the verge of monumental change because all it takes is two brothers on a podcast. All it takes is a few ministers in a city, starting to have lunch and to talk about what can we do? Let us model these conversations. Let's start as ministers having these conversations and then let's take these conversations to our people. All it takes is a few rural churches, both black and white churches of Christ, to say let's try to do something radical and model something radical that rural America has never seen and model something radical that rural America has never seen. It only takes a few people and the way that we are structured. We don't have to ask anybody for permission to take the kingdom of God to another level.
Barron Jones:So what I love about Churches of Christ we always stand on the verge of change and repentance.
Barron Jones:So the great thing about Churches of Christ is that we can do it.
Barron Jones:Our structure allows us to just go and do it, and all it takes is two brothers, two sisters, a group of friends, a couple of churches. That's all it takes, and we always, perpetually, continually stand at the verge, on the edge of change and repentance, on the edge of change and repentance. And so I call myself to that today and I've enjoyed this conversation with you as a brother that previously I have not known but you know, love and appreciate because of this discussion and commit to using my time and talent and resources and skills and abilities, to using my time and talent and resources and skills and abilities and all that God has given me, to making sure that I am showing up for this discussion and presenting myself in a way that brings glory, honor, respect and excellence to the presentation of the gospel, not only in my church, the church of Christ, but in our communities at large. And to God be the glory. Well, brother Barron Jones, thank you for being, and to God be the glory.
BT Irwin:Well, brother Baron Jones, thank you for being that voice crying in the wilderness. You said prophetic clarity is not from the middle space or the neutral space. Sometimes you have to step out into the wilderness. And thank you for letting your voice be heard in the pages of the Christian Chronicle and on this podcast today. And let it just be the start of a growing conversation that spreads to our congregations across the land. Amen.
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BT Irwin:The Christian Chronicle podcast is a production of the Christian Chronicle Incorporated, informing and inspiring Church of Christ congregations, members and ministries around the world since 1943. The Christian Chronicles managing editor is Audrey Jackson, editor-in-chief Bobby Ross Jr and executive director and CEO Eric Trigestad. The Christian Chronicle podcast is written, directed, hosted and edited by BT Irwin and is produced by James Flanagan at Podcast your Voice Studios in the Motor City, detroit, michigan, usa. Until next time, may grace and peace be yours in abundance.