The Christian Chronicle Podcast
The Christian Chronicle Podcast explores the news and stories shaping Church of Christ congregations and members around the world.
The Christian Chronicle Podcast
Episode 132: Should churches endorse political candidates? (Chris McCurley)
In early July 2025, the U.S. Internal Revenue Service changed its interpretation of the tax code to give houses of worship more leeway to engage in political speech, which may include endorsing candidates...even from the pulpit.
Is this a good thing for the church and its Great Commission?
Chris McCurley, preaching minister with the Walnut Street Church of Christ in Dickson, Tennessee, and host of the popular Dear Church Podcast, joins us to talk about politics in church. How much energy and time should preachers give to preaching and teaching on the politics of the day? When they do preach and teach on politics, what is the biblical way to do it? And should congregations and their preachers get into the political campaigning and endorsing business?
Link to the Dear Church Podcast
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Family and friends, neighbors and, most of all, strangers. Welcome to the Christian Chronicle Podcast. We're bringing you the stories shaping Church of Christ, congregations and members around the world. I'm BT Irwin. May what you are about to hear bless you and honor God.
BT Irwin:If you are a member of a congregation in the United States, your congregation is exempt from paying taxes to the federal government because it is classified as a not-for-profit organization. Now, in order to maintain that tax-exempt status with the Internal Revenue Service, your congregation must not do certain things. For example, your congregation must not start making a profit off of business activities that are not related to its purpose as a church. So if your elders decide to open a factory making and selling communion trays at a big markup, your congregation may have a lot of explaining to do to the IRS. Your tax-exempt status would be in trouble because now your congregation is making a profit from a business unrelated to its primary purpose as a house of worship.
BT Irwin:Another big no-no for churches is endorsing or opposing political candidates. Since 1954, the US tax code has been explicit that a house of worship that uses its influence to campaign for certain candidates is no longer operating under its primary purpose and should not be tax-exempt, but less than two weeks before we recorded this episode, in mid-July 2025, the Internal Revenue Service changed its interpretation of the tax code. So it now seems that churches may engage in political endorsements in speech, including endorsing certain candidates for office, without endangering their tax-exempt status. So are we entering a new era in which your congregation may choose to endorse or oppose a particular politician? Imagine hearing your preacher endorse a candidate from the pulpit or reading your elder's endorsement of a candidate in the church bulletin. It seems that the IRS is now allowing for that to happen, but is that a good thing? Today, we'll explore that question with Chris McCurley, the preaching minister with the Walnut Street Church of Christ in Dixon, tennessee, and host of the popular Dear Church podcast, where Chris and his guests explore questions like this one.
BT Irwin:Chris, thanks for coming back on our show. Sure, thank you for having me. It's a pleasure. So a lot of research over the last few years reveals that people in the pew seem to have an appetite to hear more biblical guidance and teaching on what we might call the social issues of the day. For example, a couple of episodes back, we had Scott McConnell from LifeWay Research. They released a study that revealed a big majority of Americans who identify as Christian want their pastors and preachers to teach a lot more about what the Bible has to say about treatment of immigrants, for example. A lot more about what the Bible has to say about treatment of immigrants, for example. So at the same time, there's been this similar research that shows how congregational ministers hesitate or shrink back from doing that to the degree or detail that the people in the pews might want. So let's start here. How much better do you think elders, preachers and teachers could do to guide their congregations into deeper and more biblical explorations of the social issues of the day?
Chris McCurley:Yeah well, I think we can always do better. I would back up and say you can't always let the people in the pew dictate what you preach. That's a dangerous premise. However, it is true that whatever you see going on in society, whatever the quote-unquote issue is, it's going to seep into the church and so it's going to force you to deal with it. And right now, politics and all that goes along with that, that big ball of wax is like the Indiana Jones movie. He's running from that big boulder that's chasing him. That's kind of where we're at. I mean, it's coming after us and it's bearing down on us, and so it would behoove us to talk about some of these things. Can we always do better? Absolutely. But at the same time, I think that you know our churches that I know of anyway, and I don't know all of them are doing a pretty good job of being able to say you know what? Here's what's going on in society. Here's how we, as Christians, should respond, and I think that's the angle. I think we should look at it from a standpoint of you know, as image bearers in the world, which is what we were created to be. How can we respond to, you know, the immigration issue or whatever the issue is out there.
Chris McCurley:I think that the reason why so many in the pew are wanting to hear about those things is because they're getting confusing messages from the world around them. And what do you believe anymore, right? I mean, if you get your news from social media, which a lot of young people do, well, what do you believe? Because you know, if you look at this recently, this big, well, what do you believe Because you know, if you look at this recently, this big, beautiful bill that you know was put forth? And I mean, depending on what side of the aisle you're listening to, it's either the best thing in the world or the worst thing in the world, and everybody's going to die. And it's horrible, right? And so what do you believe anymore? And I think that that's part of the reason why this research indicates people want to hear is because we don't know. Trying to choose, okay, are we?
BT Irwin:going to teach on immigration, for example, since that's the one that just came up a couple of weeks ago, or are we going to do something else? How do you make those decisions? Yeah?
Chris McCurley:so I think it's important to have a pulse on the congregation and a pulse on what's going on in the world around you, especially in your community, right, because I'm in a small community of about 16,000. Our county is about 55,000. So what is affecting our people is going to be different than somebody who's preaching in urban Chicago. Right Now we are just on the outskirts of Nashville, and so that does seep in somewhat. But I'm also in the South where, you know, it's not just the Bible Belt, but where I'm at is probably the buckle of the Bible Belt, and so you know there's mostly conservative values and so I'm preaching to the choir. You know, a lot of times when you're talking about certain conservative issues. But I just try to always take the approach of you know what is God speaking to this? Does he have anything to say about this? Because sometimes he doesn't, right? I think that's where we get off track, sometimes as well, is we want the Bible to answer a question that it's. You know it's not asking, and so we've got to be careful there. But instead of just picking the issue of, say, immigration we brought that one up Instead of picking that issue necessarily and saying here's where the Democrats have it wrong where the Republicans have it right, and vice versa.
Chris McCurley:Let's talk about the two greatest commands, the Shema in Hebrew Love the Lord, your God, with all of your heart, soul, mind and strength. Love your neighbor as yourself. How does that set the tone for how we treat all people? You know that's love your heart, soul, mind and strength. Love your neighbor as yourself. How does that set the tone for how we treat all people? That's just an example, and so trying to take it from the standpoint of the world's going to tell you these are political issues, but when you boil it down, whether it's abortion or whatever, those are biblical topics, right, and so how do we approach them from a biblical standpoint?
BT Irwin:I think one of the hard things for preachers or teachers or anyone who stands up and speaks in public in front of the church is that you've heard it said pastors say that they have their congregation for an hour on Sunday morning and then cable news has them and social media has them. The rest of the time is that the things that it almost feels like politics is setting the agenda and creating the field of play. And so, as a preacher, when you stand up to preach the message on Sunday morning, it's almost like you don't have home field advantage and people are going to interpret things. You say the things that you share from the Bible, but they're going to filter those through all the filters that they've picked up during the week. And how do you overcome that as a preacher?
Chris McCurley:That's a really good point, because I do feel like that politics is setting the agenda, that it's the home team and we're just visitors. But I mean, that's really true of Christianity in general and as disciples, this is not our home turf. You know this is the devil's playground and you know we are exiles in this world and we're waiting for something better. And so you know, peter calls us aliens and strangers and sojourners, and so that I mean that's always been true, right. But you know, for me, what I'm always trying to do from the pulpit is to bring our people back around to Jesus and the gospel, because you know, the church is to be the agency about which the story of salvation is to be told. That is our number one responsibility. We are to love God, love our neighbors. You know that is the two greatest commandments. So I'm always trying to bring our people back around to that.
Chris McCurley:And maybe I'm guilty sometimes of just pushing politics completely aside, but it has become an idol in our culture and it's become an idol in the church. There are Christians who idolize politics, and so I'm constantly, especially in election year, trying to bring people around about. Hey, remember, what's most important here is not a man-made kingdom that's destined to fall, but rather Jesus's kingdom, and he has an agenda to change the world. And that's how you change the world not through politics, but one soul at a time, because you're not here very long, right, and so it's important to remember the mission and remember what we are to be about.
BT Irwin:Personal question you just brought up an election year in politics On a scale of one to 10, 10 being the most and one being the least. How exhausted have you felt at any point in our political climate trying to preach the kingdom against all the inertia and the headwinds of politics? Yeah, I'd say a 12 for sure.
Chris McCurley:You know I mean it is absolutely exhausting. Now I will say that I am at a congregation in Dixon, tennessee, where our folks are reasonable and logical. When it comes to that. I don't fight a lot of the Christian nationalism and the idolatry that you see. It doesn't permeate us as much. I think there are plenty of people here that are politically minded, but they don't bring it to the altar, so to speak, and worship it. They keep it in a good place for the most part. I think there's always exceptions, but I think we've got a great group here, so I don't deal with it as much on a church level, but just the minutiae that you see on social media and just the constant bickering back and forth on social media.
Chris McCurley:As a minister, I feel a need to be on social media and I use it to promote the message and promote Jesus. And I mean, it's a bathroom wall, isn't it? It's just, it's terrible. And so, yeah, it actually causes you to be very jaded. And you know, when I was in Abilene, texas, I was on the school board for many years and so I was involved in local politics and I got to be honest with you the older I get, the more I seem like. You know I just I don't want anything to do with it and I know that's not necessarily the best option, but I get to where I'm like. Just please turn off the TV, turn off anything that could you know. Get into my ears about politics because I'm so tired of it.
BT Irwin:So 12,. I'm sorry, man, I'm really sorry. That was a whole lot worse than I expected, yeah yeah.
BT Irwin:So just an aside, here at our congregation we have about 250 people and I remember a few years ago not too long ago now a lot of people confided to me that they really wanted to talk about politics in church and they weren't coming to me because they, because they were trying to figure out who would get their vote or what party they said should support or who was wrong or whatever. But almost all of them came and confided to me because they were hurting really, really bad and they felt like there was division and they felt like relationships were falling apart in the church and so they really wanted to talk about politics, they wanted to sort through all that and you understand, you understand that's a minefield, right?
BT Irwin:For a church to decide to go there. So I want to get down to the new guidelines that the Internal Revenue Service recently announced. In simple language, the IRS now seems to be giving houses of worship a lot more leeway to participate in politics without losing their tax-exempt status, and the reason that the IRS gave for the change is that congregations ought to be free, under the First Amendment of the US Constitution, to discuss and talk about the issues of the day, including what most folks call politics. So you can't speak for all ministers everywhere, but in your own experience, have you ever felt that you could not talk about certain things in certain ways because it could jeopardize your congregation's tax-exempt status?
Chris McCurley:I've never felt that. Of course, I have been in churches that were in conservative settings and in conservative states. So I was in Texas before Tennessee and both are conservative states. That you know. I mean it's going to be hard to put your tax exempt status in jeopardy in these states Now when the federal government gets involved and depending on who's in the White House.
Chris McCurley:We've had some times recently where that's been brought up and there was a bit of some paranoia that that might happen. I don't know that we've ever been close to that as much as many have tried to scare us into thinking that we were. But I mean there was a possibility, right, that many of us were, you know, kind of pondering could this happen and if it does, what would happen. But I think you know, for me I've never been in a situation where I've had to worry about that and if I was, I would just do what I feel like I'm called to do, which is preach the word and try to do it to the best of my ability and whatever happens, you kind of let the chips fall where they may, right? But yeah, to answer that question, no, I've never felt that, but I've also been in a bubble, if you will.
BT Irwin:Never felt that, but I've also been in a bubble, if you will. The new guidelines from the IRS seem to give congregations leeway to even endorse candidates for political office, including from the pulpit. Candidates could mean anyone from those running for city council to the local school board, which you mentioned. You served on the school board for many years in Abilene, all the way up to president of the United States. So we've just talked a lot about what might be the right and proper way to engage politics in a congregation. You've stressed preaching the word that the Lord gives us to preach through the scriptures. Could you ever see a place? Could you ever see a place or time or occasion where it would be appropriate for a preacher, for example, to endorse a candidate from the pulpit?
Chris McCurley:Yeah, not for me personally. There may be preachers in church cultures where they feel that that is important and adequate. I would be opposed to that. Our elders here, who are conservative men, who you know feel strongly that you know the church should stand with the word of God on certain issues and especially those that we call political in nature, whether it be abortion, sexuality, those kinds of things, but they would even be opposed to that, and even the church in Abilene that was very conservative, would have been opposed to that. I'm opposed to that just because for a few reasons.
Chris McCurley:Number one I think we have an idolatry problem when it comes to politics.
Chris McCurley:It's obviously divisive as well, and all the candidates are flawed.
Chris McCurley:This idea that one has got it figured out and is the perfect man for the job because he checks every box and the other one doesn't, I mean it's just not true.
Chris McCurley:They're flawed men and no matter who gets elected, no matter how much we may like him, no matter how much we may revere him or her, they're not preaching the gospel. Right and I think that's a problem too, or it has been a problem in years past is Christians expect a candidate or an elected official to do the work of a disciple to uphold our Christian values and morals, and I would love for that to happen, but it's just not going to always, and so to expect that person to do that, I think that's futile. I think it's our job to do that, and I hope that whoever's elected will uphold the laws of land, protect its citizens and do the right thing and consult with God and pray about. You know that they have a relationship with God that affects the way that they govern, but, at the end of the day, whoever's in the White House doesn't change who I am and what my mission is.
BT Irwin:I'm trying to think about this from a point of view of someone who might disagree with you on that last point. I grew up in my entire entry into politics or interest in politics when I was a teenager in the 1990s, was the pro-life movement right? And so my parents and my grandparents and my church growing up just stressed to me how important it was to save the lives of unborn children, and politics is obviously a means by which you can do that, and it's actually really important. It was always kind of a given growing up in my church environment that you supported candidates who were pro-life, and those candidates were almost always Republican candidates. And so there's a lot at stake here. Right, there are actual lives at stake, millions of unborn babies. Their lives are at stake.
BT Irwin:And so I could hear someone listen to the point you made about not endorsing a political candidate. But somebody might say but Chris, you know what about when lives are at stake, such as in the case of abortion, and you have a candidate who's pro-life running against a candidate who's pro-choice, you know pro-abortion, why would you not endorse the pro-life candidate to the members of your church? Would you not endorse the pro-life?
Chris McCurley:candidate to the members of your church. My first response has nothing to do with spirituality. My first response would be and how has that worked? You know, I mean we've had candidates that were pro-life all the way through. We've had candidates that had control of Congress and the House. That could have changed. You know the abortion laws and things of that nature that have done nothing. I mean, you know, here we are, abortion is still legal. I mean, we've seen some movement lately in that with President Trump, and certainly I'm all for that.
Chris McCurley:You know, there's issues that are near and dear to all of us, and that is one that is near and dear to me. I personally could not vote for someone who's not pro-life because I believe it's a biblical topic more than a political topic, and so that is an issue that is a driver for me when I vote. I was talking more in general terms of, you know, endorsing a candidate from the pulpit, knowing that you, knowing that they are flawed like anybody else, while they may have good qualities and certainly things that match up with what we believe, then I think that's a given, that's something to take into consideration for sure, especially if there's a candidate that doesn't uphold our Christian values. So I want to be clear I would not discourage my congregation from voting or being involved in the political process. In fact, when we talk about it I tell them all the time go ahead, vote, be involved. You know, use the system that we have been given to affect change as much as possible, but just don't allow it to take an unhealthy place in your life. Don't allow it to occupy an unhealthy position in your life Because at the end of the day again, whoever's in the White House doesn't affect who we are and what our mission is. Right, I hope that makes sense. But yeah, I mean, I think absolutely.
Chris McCurley:You know that you've got extremes here. You've got the David Lipscomb extreme which says I don't think you should be in politics and no Christian should ever be invested in politics in any way, shape or form. And then you've got the other end of the spectrum which says politics is the driver of my faith rather than faith being the driver of my politics. And look, you don't have to vote. It's not a sin if you don't vote and it bothers me when we make people feel guilty that they don't. But for me personally, I want to be involved and use the system that we've been given to hopefully affect some change like that. I would love for abortion to not be a thing and for it to be completely wiped out and we never have to worry about that again. Unfortunately, we've had candidates that had an opportunity to make some big changes there and they didn't.
BT Irwin:I think it certainly has changed a lot of people's perspective on the issue the last few years that it's not as easy as maybe some of us thought or were led to believe. I want to ask you about these new guidelines from the IRS. I've been a church guy my whole life and I don't remember ever being around any church leaders who said you know, what we really need is we need the leeway to endorse political candidates in our congregation. These guidelines from the IRS are these a gift we didn't know we needed in the church, or might these become a temptation that could catch us off guard?
BT Irwin:Yes that's my answer.
Chris McCurley:You know a gift from the standpoint that you know it seemed that we were heading in an unhealthy, scary direction, in that we were going to be limited as to what we could talk about and what we could preach on, even if it was directly from the Bible. But if it opposed, you know whoever was in office and the mandates that they handed down. So if you were preaching against, say, homosexuality, abortion or something like that, then you know you could have your tax exempt status taken away. And you know, obviously we were heading towards a direction where those things would be classified as hate speech. And I don't know how close we were. We saw other countries around us that were dealing with it and it scared us, and you know, rightfully so. And so a gift from that standpoint that that seems to completely change the direction and move it back into a more logical and reasonable position. But yeah, I mean it can lead to an unhealthy fixation on politics and really just play to what I've already said, which is further division, which is further division, further idolatry, further making politics more than what it needs to be. Again, I said it a while ago. Let me frame it this way Politics can be useful and it can be a resource, but when we make it bigger than what it should be is when it becomes a problem.
Chris McCurley:By the way, you know what politics means. Right, you break it down Polymenian ticks, which are blood sucking insects. I mean that's what politics means? No, I mean it does get a bad rap, and rightfully so. But I don't think the answer is for less Christians to be involved. I think the answer would be for more Christians to be involved. I think the answer would be for more Christians to be involved, but limiting that involvement so that it doesn't consume you and pull you away from what's most important.
BT Irwin:Yeah, I'm heavily involved in politics local politics as an expression of neighbor love. So I have been a public servant in my community because Jesus commands me to love my neighbors, and so one of the ways that I love my neighbors is through local politics. And so I believe in the classic definition of politics it's basically the business of the city, right?
BT Irwin:The city of the polis, and it's you know. If, in your case, 16,000 people live together in Dixon, tennessee, they've got to find a way to organize life right and coexist, and politics in its best form is how you do that. So we can't live without it, and yet it has. It sometimes grows into something that's kind of sinister. I want to bring us back to the church, though, because we've talked a lot about politics here, and one of the things I've said probably a million times on this show is this is not a show about politics. This is a show about the church and its great commission, and we bump into politics all the time. So it's something that we have to talk about, but I don't want to lose sight of why we're really here. So we're Church Christ folks. We aspire to derive every church practice from biblical command example and inference. What biblical command example inference could encourage and support a congregation to possibly endorse a political candidate? Can you think of any? Yeah, you know I can't think of any.
Chris McCurley:You know, book, chapter, verse, kind of thing. And that's where I said a moment ago. If you back way up and you look at you know proper Bible study, that's one of the things that we do right. You know proper Bible study, that's one of the things that we do right. We start with an agenda or a preference and then we go to the Bible and say what does the Bible have to say about this? And the truth of the matter is what happens more often than not is the Bible doesn't have anything to say about that, but we want it to say something about that. So we put some verses together and we say, see, this backs up or this supports my view here. And I think the better question is what does God say about this?
Chris McCurley:And when you look at Jesus's ministry, he just didn't really dig into politics. I mean, the verses that we see are him talking about render under Caesar. What is Caesar's? And you know, I mean, basically, you've got a bigger mission in mind here. You know, don't get too caught up in the way of Rome and what's going on around you. You know, obviously, when it becomes a contradiction with God's word or Jesus's mission, then you know we can't go along any further. Word or Jesus's mission, then you know we can't go along any further. But Jesus is saying you know and I think that's the message of you know the prophets as well, jeremiah, I mean, be a good little citizen, you know, build your houses and plug into this new community you're in and make a difference, bloom where you're planted, right. So I would think that that would be the basic message. Also, I also feel like that you know, if we're being who we need to be, if we're striving to be Jesus in this world around followers and who are striving to live out his mission were involved in local politics and even on a bigger level, how much difference that would make.
Chris McCurley:What has happened is, unfortunately and I'm speaking generally here but what's happened is it's kind of like the fan at the basketball game that's ranting and raving at the referee and after they lose the game they're blaming the's ranting and raving at the referee and after they lose the game, they're blaming the referees.
Chris McCurley:And how terrible the referees are and I'm like well, but are you attracting the best of the best to the field of refereeing? Because they know I'm going to be treated horribly, I'm not going to get paid a whole lot, I get no respect. I mean, after a while the people who are best suited for the job say you know what, you can find somebody else. And I think we're seeing that a little bit in our school systems with coaches and even teachers. And I think you're seeing that in the realm of politics is you know, the people that you're attracting to the job are not necessarily the ones that you know maybe are the best suited for it, because you know who wants the job right. And so how much better could it be if folks that were Christ followers said you know what? I'm going to be involved in the process and try to do my best to affect change, with God on my side.
BT Irwin:I would encourage them to do that. I've been twisting arms like crazy in my community trying to get the best and brightest to run for city council this fall, and I've been twisting arms like crazy in my community trying to get the best and brightest to run for city council this fall, and I've succeeded with a couple, I'm happy to say. So I want to end with this.
BT Irwin:When I think about how much we rely on the Bible to inform and inspire the lives that we lead as apprentices and students of Jesus Christ and as the Church of Christ, as apprentices and students of Jesus Christ and as the Church of Christ, one thing that just really has kind of occurred to me in recent years is the Christians in the first century.
BT Irwin:They could not possibly imagine the station in life that Christians hold in the United States in the 21st century. They had very little power, very little influence, very few rights. They had very little power, very little influence, very few rights, and so, as a preacher, looking back to the Bible to try to figure out how to preach to the church in 21st century United States, how to encourage Christians to be involved in their communities, to participate in politics, even to be involved in their communities to participate in politics. Even I'm saying there's very little in the Bible from our first century brothers and sisters to show us how to do that, because that wasn't the world in which they lived. I don't know if you agree or disagree with me on that point.
Chris McCurley:I do agree with you. Yeah the church, the first church, never should have gotten off the ground.
BT Irwin:No, it shouldn't. It's amazing that it survived, and only by the grace of God and the power of God did it survive out of the first century. So, as a preacher and a teacher, when you look to scripture to form this idea of what it looks like for us as followers of Jesus in 21st century America, where do you go? What scriptures form the basis of what you teach to your folks there?
Chris McCurley:I tell our folks, and I try to remind them, that, no matter which way the election goes, whether it swings in your favor or not, the church doesn't need politics, the church doesn't need government support, because the first church didn't have it and they thrived.
Chris McCurley:So that should be a lesson for us. Would we love to have the support of whoever's in the White House and federal government? Yes, would we love for them to make it easier for us to do what we do? Yes, obviously, and we want to keep certain protections and certain rights, for sure. But if we were a persecuted church, if we didn't have government support, if this was like, say, rome, and we were put in a position to choose between the emperor and God, we'd be okay. It wouldn't be ideal, based on what we've lived so far, but we would be okay, and so that's one. Based on what we've lived so far, but we would be okay, and so that's one. But I think about you know, we mentioned a while ago, but when the Jews were taken into exile and they were told to just, you know, basically get comfortable, have a family, you know, work the land, you know, build a life, because you're going to be here a while and try to be a light where you're at. You know.
Chris McCurley:I think about Peter and his writings to persecuted Christians and these exiles, as you would have it, of the dispersion, and he's telling them. You know, it's not always going to be this way, but for now this is the way it is, and he tells them to pray. Pray for your, for your leaders. You know, even though you don't really like them, even though you don't agree with them, even though that they're kind of the cause of all this, pray for your leaders, pray for those in positions like that, and that's tough to swallow. I also believe that God has always worked through culture, and so the culture that we're in now I believe God is working through and I believe that you know there is a lot that can be done in this culture as well and finding our place in that. The Bible is a story, the story of redemption, and when you get baptized you are placed in that story and you get to live that story. So how are you going to live it out in the here and now?
Chris McCurley:And when I see all of the division and all of the vitriol on social media, all of the division and all of the vitriol on social media, or even within the church or in society around us, I think and meanwhile the lost are still lost. Here we are bickering and fighting over all this stuff and meanwhile the lost are still lost Because, again, no matter how great government's going at the time or how bad it is. It's a man-made system and those always fall. They're always destined to fall, and it bothers me that we don't expect perfection in anything else, certainly politics. If you agree with me on one issue or two, yeah, you're hired, I'm voting for that guy. But we expect perfection in the church and we expect everything to be perfect, and it's like it's unrealistic. You don't expect perfection in anything else in your life, but yet if it's not perfect in the church, I'm out of here.
Chris McCurley:Yeah, and just learn, learn, you know, learning how to, how to get along and not just survive, but to thrive in this culture when there's so much division and so much hatred. You know the world has enough drama. They don't need it at church and this doesn't need to be an episode of as the world turns. I mean we need to be, we need to be out there and showing that hey, you're, you're investing in politics and you're listening to. You know the culture around you and they're telling you what's most important. But here's what's most important and we have a family here and you can have a relationship with God and your life will be astronomically better, to the point that you don't have to worry and be affected by all that drama. Does that make sense?
BT Irwin:It does make sense, and I said that was going to be the last question, but I'm going to ask you this one because you were quoting Jeremiah 29 at the beginning of your answer, which just happened to be the text that we were looking at in adult Bible class on Sunday morning.
BT Irwin:And it hurts me, but those promises in Jeremiah 29,. When God gave the exiles those promises, it was in anticipation that they would go home. So you're going to be in Babylon for a while, but I promise you you will go home. You will go back home someday. And so I've been thinking since Sunday morning about seeking first the kingdom of God, which factors into what I'll be preaching this Sunday. Have we in the church in the West, in the United States, have we kind of forgotten how to seek first the kingdom of God? Have we become forgetful about what that means, so that politics has kind of moved into that vacuum and has taken the place in our imaginations and our minds of what the kingdom, of what we should be waiting for and anticipating and working toward. It's become politics instead. You get around a lot, you talk to a lot of people. So I wonder if you're picking up that vibe the same way I am.
Chris McCurley:Absolutely. You know the promises in Jeremiah 29, 29, 11 is. You know the email tagline and the graduation card. You know first, for I know the plans I have for you graduation card. You know first, for I know the plans I have for you. And you know that wasn't written to you. I tell people all the time the Bible wasn't written to you, it was written for you but it wasn't written to you.
Chris McCurley:And the heading just above, depending on the version you use, just above chapter 29 says message to exiles. And you know it really wasn't all that encouraging to many people because some 70 years in the future you're going to go home, but for right now, so many people were not even going to see that promise come to fruition. And so, as a future hope and where that applies to us is, yeah, we have a future hope you know the whole God's going to prosper me and all that. You know, in the future you're going to live a very prosperous existence in paradise with him. But this idea that well, I heard a guy say it this way you have exegesis, which is properly extracting from the text what it means. You have eisegesis, which is saying what I want it to say. And then he said there's another called narcissus, where I just make it out to apply to me. And then he said there's another called Narcissus, where I just make it out to apply to me. And we do that with the Bible all the time. We read it devotionally, narcissistically, and I think we do that with Jeremiah 29.
Chris McCurley:And I think that has a lot to do with what you just asked is we're kind of forgotten kingdom people in that you know, jesus brought the kingdom. It's here and it's still to come, you know right, but we're in it now and I don't know that. We always see that because we're so distracted by the things that are going on around us. And Jesus said my kingdom is not of this world. And I think that's crucial to understanding this whole discussion is, you know, there's a man-made kingdom and you've got one foot in it and one foot in the other. It seems like most times, and it's hard sometimes to figure out where I'm at, but at the end of the day that kingdom goes away, that kingdom is not going to be here long term. This one is. So you better focus your attention on the one that's going to last and not the one that's going to be destroyed.
BT Irwin:That's good. Well, chris McCurley, I feel like I've just been on an episode of Dear Church, so, but I got to ask the question, we can make that happen.
BT Irwin:I know I got to ask the question, so I hope you enjoyed answering them. Thank you for being our guest today Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure. Awesome, it was a pleasure. Awesome, it was a pleasure.
BT Irwin:And while we're saying goodbye, I want to say a personal thank you to Dr David Layton for inviting me to be his guest on his Journey to Hope podcast. I'll link it in the show notes and recommend it, not because I got to be on it, but because Dr Layton interviews so many people who have stories that will boost your hope in God if you find your hope sagging, as you find your hope sagging, as we all do from time to time. So if you need some fresh wind in your sails, I recommend the Journey to Hope podcast. I had a lot of fun being in the guest chair for a change. Please check it out.
BT Irwin:We hope something you heard in this episode encouraged, enlightened or enriched you in some way. If it did, thanks be to God and please pay it forward. Subscribe to this podcast and share it with a friend. Recommend and review it wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Your subscription, recommendation and review help us reach more people. Please send your comments, ideas and suggestions to podcast at christianchronicleorg.
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