The Christian Chronicle Podcast
The Christian Chronicle Podcast explores the news and stories shaping Church of Christ congregations and members around the world.
The Christian Chronicle Podcast
Episode 134: Our Gen Y and Gen Z editors on the future of Christian journalism (Calvin Cockrell and Audrey Jackson)
The two youngest members of The Christian Chronicle's full-time news team are incoming managing editor Calvin Cockrell (Gen Y) and outgoing managing editor Audrey Jackson (Gen Z). In this episode, they talk about how working with The Christian Chronicle is exposing them to the Church of Christ they never imagined or knew. They also talk about what it is like to be journalists at a time when the profession is under cultural, economic and political duress. And, if they were to start a new Christian Chronicle just for Christians under the age of 30, how would it be different from The Christian Chronicle of preceding generations?
Link to The Christian Chronicle on TikTok (referenced in the interview)
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Family and friends, neighbors and, most of all, strangers. Welcome to the Christian Chronicle Podcast. We're bringing you the stories shaping Church of Christ congregations and members around the world. I'm BT Irwin. May what you are about to hear bless you and honor God.
BT Irwin:Just to give you an idea of the Christian Chronicle's age, here are some things that happened in 1943, the year that the first issue of the Christian Chronicle rolled off the press in Texas. World War II raged across the planet, franklin Roosevelt was president of the United States and that year he became the first US president to travel by airplane on presidential business, crossing the Atlantic to meet with British Prime Minister Winston Churchill in Casablanca. Cs Lewis published his classic the Screwtape Letters, and the pages of the Christian Chronicle reported on how Church of Christ congregations were evangelizing through an innovative use of a fast-growing technology radio. So yeah, the Christian Chronicle has been around for a long time and the world has changed a lot since that very first issue. And that's why it was big news when the Christian Chronicle hired 20-something-year-old recent college graduate Audrey Jackson. On her first day she lowered the average age of the Christian Chronicle news team by oh quite a lot. About a year later, the Christian Chronicle brought on another 20-something, calvin Cockrell, to fill a whole new role converting or creating Christian Chronicle content for social media, most of all social media popular with the youngest generations. Age is just a number. Age is just a number. What matters for a ministry like the Christian Chronicle is that it be accessible, relevant and valuable to Christians of all ages and from as many backgrounds as there are places in the world where the Church of Christ puts down roots. To that end, audrey and Calvin have been big contributors. For example, over the last four years Audrey has reported some of the deepest diving, most revealing, thoughtful stories we've ever run, from 18 countries where she traveled, including the United States, and as managing editor she played a key role in the branding and redesign of the Christian Chronicle last year.
BT Irwin:But the day after we record this episode will be Audrey's last day with us. She recently got engaged to be married and is moving to a new city to start a whole new life there. No doubt we'll hear or see her again, but this season with the Christian Chronicle ends for her now. The day she leaves, calvin Cockrell will take over managing editor duties. So at this changing of the guard, we're bringing in the Christian Chronicle's two youngest editors to talk about the present and future of what we here call Real News that Honors God. I'll point out that my age is almost their two ages put together, so you know what they've got is going to be fresh almost their two ages put together. So you know what they've got is going to be fresh. Audrey, calvin, thanks for being here today. Audrey, congratulations on getting married sometime soon, though you don't know when and for moving on to big things. And Calvin, congratulations to you for getting promoted to managing editor and moving into big new things of your own. Thank you for making time to be on our show today.
Audrey Jackson:Thanks for having us. I can't believe you didn't make a joke about me moving on to greener pastures, since I'm headed to Kentucky.
BT Irwin:I'll leave that joke to you, thank you.
Calvin Cockrell:Yeah, thanks. Thanks for having me on.
BT Irwin:All right. So first of all, we got to start with you, audrey, because this is your next to last day when we're recording this. I think you were fresh out of college when you took the job with the Christian Chronicle. When you started here, what did you imagine it would be like covering the Church of Christ Beaton? I'll back up a second here. I'm sure when you were looking for jobs, when you were thinking about what you were going to do after you graduated and I don't remember this story you may have looked at a lot of different options for journalism work and maybe some other things, and then you ended up at the Christian Chronicle covering the Church of Christ beat. What did you imagine it would be like when you started? And here we are four years later. How did what you actually covered compare with what you imagined at first?
Audrey Jackson:You know, when I applied for this job, I thought reporting on Church of Christ would have a much narrower lens. I thought it would be fully limited just to churches and what churches are doing, ministries and what ministries are doing. So one thing I learned very quickly was the broad scope of coverage that we have based on what affects Church of Christ members and what those Christians are doing. That's something I tell people all the time as a religion reporter is religion is in almost every aspect of life when you think about it. It's in social circles, it's in politics, and so we're also there. Church of Christ members are also there in those spaces doing things, being impacted and affected by different things happening, and so I was shocked by the scope of things I was able to cover. You know I went to Uvalde after the shooting there. I've been in Ukraine and Israel reporting on the wars, so I think that caught me off guard. I didn't realize how broad of coverage we had at the Christian Chronicle when I started working here.
BT Irwin:This question could be for both of you, because both of you are a few years in now to covering Church of Christ news. How has covering the Church of Christ changed your impression of the Church of Christ?
Calvin Cockrell:For me kind of along the same lines of what audrey was just talking about. It's shown me how far reaching the impact of churches of christ and and church members has been, and it's also shown me how many opportunities there are, I think, to do good in in so many situations. There's so many ministries that I've seen that I never would have thought of or imagined. There's so many opportunities there are to do good in so many situations, through so many avenues and in so many places. Discovering Churches of Christ news has also shown me what a wide spectrum there is among Churches of Christ. You know I grew up in Alabama, I still live here, deep South Bible Belt, and so even among Churches of Christ there's a certain culture here that has been my entire perception, or had been my entire perception of our fellowship, or had been my entire perception of our fellowship, and so reporting and watching my colleagues report on churches around the country and around the globe has been very eye-opening.
BT Irwin:When you talked about being exposed to ministries that you didn't even imagine existed, and I'll use the word cultures, congregational cultures that are outside of the Alabama Bible Belt, culture that you've known your whole life. Can you give us a couple of examples of stories that you covered, that opened your eyes to that?
Calvin Cockrell:Yeah, I just recently covered this play that was done by an Atlanta church. It was a very interesting topic. It was called the Art of Influence and Interview with the Devil. It was kind of about how Satan influences our everyday lives and kind of manipulates us through everyday interactions and so something like that, a ministry through theater, and I hadn't really seen anything like that before In terms of culture. You know, I reported on a church, or two churches actually, that were merging in Spokane, Washington. So that was an interesting experience, you know, being in a place where, you know, even in the US, where Christianity is not so widespread, not so common, and so that's something that they were kind of struggling with and trying to work through to reach people, which you know, that can be a struggle anywhere, but especially when there's kind of no basic Christian foundation for a lot of people.
Audrey Jackson:I really just echo most of what Calvin said. My first thought was I was really surprised by what the full spectrum of Church of Christ are and can be, because, very similarly, I grew up in north central Arkansas, I went to Harding, so there's kind of a template almost of what those congregations are in that area. So seeing just across the US how different congregations function and how they vary was something that caught me off guard.
BT Irwin:Do you have some examples, like Calvin gave?
Audrey Jackson:One example is with communion. I've had everything from grape juice, which is pretty standard, to wine in Italy and grape soda wine in Italy and grape soda. So it just varies on tradition, on what people can get their hands on where they are in life. That's just a small example of some of the differences I've seen.
BT Irwin:So you mentioned wine in Italy and I believe you had the grape soda in Africa. Is that right?
Audrey Jackson:Somewhere in Africa. I can't remember the exact country.
BT Irwin:You've been all over that continent, so you have done a lot of traveling as a reporter for the Christian Chronicle and it's, is it 18 countries, not including the United States 18, not including yeah.
BT Irwin:I believe at this point there are more members of the Church of Christ living outside the United States than in the United States and that balance is probably going to continue to tip more in favor of outside the United States. What about? Our fellowship in other parts of the world differs the most from what we experience here in the US. Calvin, just a moment ago, talked about hey, I've been in Alabama my whole life. This is what I know and you talked about growing up in Arkansas and going to Harding University and that's kind of what you knew. You used the word template. So as you traveled overseas and you encountered a lot of congregations and other cultures and contexts, what did you notice about them that really differs from our culture here in our congregations?
Audrey Jackson:In some ways they're very similar, I would say broadly. One of the things I've seen outside of the US is there is more of a spirit of cooperation, oftentimes interconnectivity. I think there's a tendency in the US where there are so many congregations, especially in the Bible Belt, where people can kind of pick and choose who they associate with based on if they agree with their principles, you know, churches of Christ. There's a reaching across the table and shaking hands and bringing into fellowship together. Oh, that was not a complete sentence. There's a habit to reach across the table and make friendships and alliances and have fellowship with people that if you're in an area where there's a high density of churches of Christ, you might not do that normally but you're more isolated. I see that ministries and congregations tend to reach out more into their communities and to other fellow believers and make those connections and paths.
BT Irwin:Wow, wow, that's a good observation. I bet a lot of people who listen to this have never even thought of that before, and I haven't really thought about it until right now. So, as you visited these congregations and other parts of the world, what surprised you the most?
Audrey Jackson:I think one of the first times I went to South Africa that was my first time being on that continent I was shocked at the level of dress that some people have for Sunday, because I'm pretty casual when it comes to going to church and I would certainly expect in areas of the world that are developing nations it might be similar to that and it's not. They dress to the nines, they pull out the silk and the satin and you're walking in red, dusty, dirt roads to church and they are in a white silk gown, which I would have never expected because I would never wear white in those situations.
Audrey Jackson:I think that was something that impressed me kind of the level of reverence that certain congregations in certain places of the world bring to worship and ministry.
BT Irwin:I literally don't wear a white button-down shirt to church anymore because I don't want to spill coffee on it.
BT Irwin:So that's you know we do have we Americans? I think we I've studied this in missions classes that I took in grad school we, we tend to have a little of bit of a default setting. I think that we believe we may know best and so we tend to imagine ourselves, I think, as role models and teachers for the world. But in your experience among those Christians that you visited in all those other countries, what have you heard or seen from them that those of us who are in the United States could benefit a great deal if we would learn it from them? I mean, what could Christians in other countries teach us here in the United States?
Audrey Jackson:I think this is done within Churches of Christ in the US as well, but I see it more often outside the US is the laying of a groundwork for a path to invitation that doesn't necessarily involve straightforward evangelism Okay, involve straightforward evangelism.
Calvin Cockrell:Okay.
Audrey Jackson:So I think about Turkey, in which they were providing temporary housing, relief and aid to different people who'd been affected by the earthquakes, but they weren't preaching while they were doing that, they weren't going forth and saying oh well, you need to, you know, attend church to be able to live in this container home. There were no specifications set on the person who's experiencing a tragedy that they need to fulfill in order to receive something. And I see I've seen that all around the world as people going forth, you know, with medical missions and things like that, and just saying you know, this is a seed, this is just going to be here are Christians coming and doing something, requiring nothing of us, which begs the question why and I see that approach much more outside of the US than inside of the US, though I do see it here as well- From your observation.
BT Irwin:Americans and I have this on my brain because I just read oh, what's the name of the book? The Relentless Elimination of Hurry, or whatever, by John Mark Comer. I don't know if you've heard of the book, but Americans, I think, tend to be in a hurry and we're very goal oriented. So we have a goal in mind and we hurry toward that goal and we work very, very hard toward that goal. You think that, as you've observed in other places, where Christians say, hey, we're doing this for we're loving our neighbors, without any expectation of anything in return, without condition, we're planting a seed right Seeds take time to grow.
BT Irwin:Is there a, would you say, maybe one of the reasons there's such a difference? There is because Americans tend to be in a hurry to get somewhere, and maybe some of the other cultures where you visited, they may move at a slower pace. It could be because they're agrarian, like Comer makes the point in his book, that farmers know how to wait. You plant a seed, you can't make it grow. It takes time. But you've visited these countries I haven't. Do you notice a slower pace of life, more of just being in touch with the moment and waiting for things, versus our kind of all-business, go, go, go American mindset.
Audrey Jackson:I've definitely seen a slower pace in other countries. I would say I think there is also a baseline in the US that allows for more rapid approaches, because in the US, I would say, most people have a baseline for Christianity. They have a baseline for the Bible, for Jesus. Not everyone, but most people in the US have some type of baseline, especially if you're in the South. Almost everyone's been to a vacation Bible school, everyone's gone to church at least once on Wednesday night. So I think there is less of a framework, less of a foundation that has to be laid in certain cases, whereas when you're working in another part of the world, where there's no foundation and, a lot of times, entirely different religious belief systems, it takes a lot longer to lay those foundations and those frameworks and bring about understanding, and so I think that naturally lends to a slower approach.
BT Irwin:Let's imagine that you set out to start from scratch a news organization for Church of Christ folks your age and younger. How would you do it? What would it be, and how would things like content and delivery be different from what the senior generations have experienced in their lifetimes?
Audrey Jackson:Well, I hate to say it because I love a print copy, but it would probably be solely digital. I think about how I consume news and while I love print copies, I've got the New York Times subscription, so that's digital. I read the Associated Press online. I read different sources online. I have apps on my phone. I see news clips on Instagram Reels not TikTok, because my age is just above the cutoff for wanting to be on TikTok and receiving my news that way.
BT Irwin:There's a cutoff.
Audrey Jackson:There's a cutoff. It's about I wasn't aware 24, 23, I would say so our interns are 2021. They're on TikTok, I'm not at 26. But yeah, probably short form videos densely packed with information, probably in a more laid back or casual storytelling manner and digitally.
Calvin Cockrell:I mean, I'm older than you, audrey, and I'm on TikTok, that's true, Actually Calvin's a big TikTok influencer. At least as a person.
Calvin Cockrell:But yeah, I mean for me I just turned 30, kind of on the borderline millennial Gen Z. But typically when I'm consuming news that doesn't involve my job, it's coming through social media Facebook, tiktok, instagram or email newsletters. I like to that. That saves me from having to like go specifically on a website and look through everything kind of a digest.
Calvin Cockrell:The thing about the social media stuff is you pretty much have to rely on people being interested enough to engage with it and share it so that other people see it. And you know, I think you know what do younger generations care about? And I think what do younger generations care about? I think a lot of it is self-centered, and I don't mean that necessarily in a negative way, but just observationally that younger people are mostly interested in things that directly involve them or people they know. And you know that's true of all people to a degree, but I think especially younger people and I don't mean that they don't care about others either, but I think they want to have some skin in the game and they want to be included in the conversation and the process, and if they can't be, if they can't get that, then they're not really interested. So I think that's, that's really important.
BT Irwin:You've had some like monster Christian Chronicle, tiktok posts or I don't know what you call them Like. What's the biggest one you've had, calvin? Wasn't it like 17 million? It was something crazy.
Calvin Cockrell:It wasn't 17. I think it was three or 4 million views. Yeah, but that was one of the ones that didn't have my face in it, so maybe that says something.
BT Irwin:I mean just to put it in perspective, the Christian Chronicle newspaper that gets mailed out every month all over the world has I still think it's around 130,000 recipients every month. So and that's good, that's big numbers. We can sell some ads there. But Calvin, that TikTok. We're talking about millions of viewers, so that reach goes multiple times further than our newspaper, and that's why I always call the Christian Chronicle a media family when I talk about it.
BT Irwin:Now it's not just the newspaper anymore, it's all the media.
BT Irwin:So I have one more journalism question for y'all and then we'll wrap this up. So I grew up hearing a lot about media bias, and I think we even hear about it at the Christian Chronicle, because, you know, church of Christ, folks are fairly opinionated and if they don't like a particular story or that, we reported a story in the first place, we do once in a while hear from people who might say we have some form of media bias and we're human beings, we're not robots, we're not AI. So each of the human beings that works with the Christian Chronicle forms opinions and feelings about the subjects that they cover, and so it would be a lie to say we don't form biases. We don't form biases, sometimes over the subjects we cover. But, that being said, why should people of any persuasion trust that we report accurately and fairly? How do you, as professional journalists, manage your own feelings and opinions about subjects in a way that you can still report, so that people can trust that what you're giving them is going to be accurate and fair?
Audrey Jackson:First of all, in terms of our reporting being fair and accurate, it's not just one person. I don't sit at my desk, write an article, format, that for the website, and then publish it. There is an editing process and it goes through the hands of copy editors, it goes through the hands of Bobby Ross Jr, our editor-in-chief, and so if there is bias, inherent bias or overt bias, that's going to get caught and cut by staff. But on top of that, I think personally, professionally, as long as you're very aware of your biases, everyone has them, but as long as you are aware of them, they are less likely to affect your reporting. I think it's when you either deny having them or you are unaware of them because they're so subconscious.
Audrey Jackson:That's when it starts to creep in, because you can't really manage that if you are unaware of it.
Calvin Cockrell:There's sort of a uniqueness to what we do compared to other news organizations in that the majority of the time we're not really out to report on hard-hitting, controversial issues.
Calvin Cockrell:We're trying to share, for the most part, the good and worthwhile things that Christians are doing in the kingdom, and so, you know, bias doesn't necessarily play into that a lot of times, you know, but there are times we have to get into the weeds on certain issues, divisive issues that exist within our fellowship or that impact our fellowship, and we just have to do our best to have honest conversations and get to the truth and get the reasonable voices out there. And we're not always going to do it perfectly. But I hope that our readers will trust that as Christians we are, we're all Christians here and we're that we're being honest in our efforts. And you know, like Audrey said, we serve as a check on each other. It may surprise some people, but we as a team do not agree on everything all the time. We have different perspectives and if we've written something in a way that feels, you know, too one-sided or something like that, then we help each other. Real things back in.
BT Irwin:I can attest to that. So let's bring it back to the big picture here at the end. The two of you have been covering the Church of Christ around the world for a few years now, so you have more experience and exposure than most folks do. What would you say is the state of our fellowship and its people now?
Audrey Jackson:I would say there is a general consensus of concern, especially in the US, about declining numbers and not having as much engagement with younger generations.
Audrey Jackson:I mean, you asked a question that kind of touched on that is how would we engage with people our age?
Audrey Jackson:Because if you go to most churches of Christ in the US, there is kind of a drop off, especially in rural congregations.
Audrey Jackson:There's kind of a cut off around maybe like 50, or younger people are not as present in the church, and so I'd say that is something that I generally see, at least among US congregations, but that of course leaks into international churches as well, because a lot of churches in other countries are supported by churches in the US and so, as churches in the US are affected by decline, that is also felt globally, and so I'd say that is kind of a general feeling that I've seen across churches around the world, churches around the world, but there's also, I find, pockets of hope and encouragement where people are finding unconventional ways to do ministry and finding that that has a huge impact with community and engagement, because when I think people tend to be very set in a mindset of this is evangelism and this is how evangelism works, and so when you break that mold, especially for people who aren't in the church, that feels more welcoming a lot of times.
Calvin Cockrell:I believe. I think it's a tough question to answer and I think the answer is different in you know, not only different places, but right down the street you know, there are churches, of course, that are struggling and declining, but there are churches that are growing and doing something In both cases, churches that are doing a lot of good, and I just think that we just have to keep pressing on, as we always have done, and working for the cause of Christ.
BT Irwin:Audrey, we're recording this on your next to last day, so let's end this conversation with you. You've covered some of the most dramatic stories, I think, to ever appear in the Christian Chronicle, and that's not just over the four years you've been here. I think that's since we started publishing in 1943. So what story or stories made the deepest impression on you?
Audrey Jackson:I think a lot about Turkey and some of my foreign reporting in spaces in the world that are not necessarily highly trafficked with Christianity. It's not a place where missionaries tend to go, it's not a place where there's a huge church presence. I tend to think of those spaces more as having impact on me personally, because I think the hope that I've found there is very interesting, because I think if I was in a situation where I felt isolated, I would not have much hope or excitement. But then you go there and there is work that is happening and people connecting with communities and other people and setting aside cultural and religious differences to get to know who those people are, that community is, and work with them, rather than like offering them a product, but really connecting with a community and working in tandem with them to share what they believe.
BT Irwin:Yeah, those were really good stories. They were very impactful stories that you wrote. You went to Turkey twice, right?
Audrey Jackson:I wrote about Turkey twice. I went to Turkey once.
BT Irwin:That's right. So you reported after the earthquake and then you went a year later, yes, and reported from Turkey a year later. Those were impactful stories. We'll link those in the show notes so everybody can go back and read those again.
BT Irwin:Well, audrey, it's been a lot of fun working with you and you've done just a crackerjack job as a reporter, as a photographer, as a managing editor.
BT Irwin:As a managing editor, you work so hard, your standards are so high. You, like I said, you've traveled all over the world and you've done some of the most difficult reporting for us over the last four years that you've been here. So you've been a blessing not only to the staff at the Christian Chronicle but more so to all of our listeners and readers and watchers around the world, and then all the people that they touch that will never even know that you are the source of the story that inspired or informed someone to do what they do. So you will be missed very much by all of us in the Christian Chronicle family all around the world, and we're thankful to you for what you've done so well for the last four years, and our prayers are with you as you get married at some point. So your fiance has a year of really, really intense, difficult residency and then when that's over because he's going to be a doctor when that's over, then you'll take a breath and set your wedding date and plan and and and off we go, right.
Audrey Jackson:Exactly yeah, Intern year for ER you know, emergency medicine residents that's really difficult for them. Just an easy example is in the month of August. He gets five days off total and none of those are consecutive, and he works a bunch of 24 hour shifts. So, yeah, sitting down getting together to plan a wedding would not be very easy, and I definitely want him to be involved in the wedding planning. So we're just going to hold off for a bit.
BT Irwin:For sure and if there's, is there anything at all? Any hint, like you may not know, but what? I always like to ask this question of most people, because I know how I think I'm always thinking ahead to what project would I like to do? What thing would I really be interested in doing? So you're going to take a break. I think you're leaving the Chronicle for the time being. Are you thinking about journalism? What? What ideas do you have in mind for what's the next big project that Audrey's going to take on besides getting married?
Audrey Jackson:I would love to connect more with photography Calvin talked about when he studied at his university. It was more visually focused, and the same is true about me. I had a focus in photojournalism, and while I've done a lot of that for the Chronicle on the Stories I Also Report, I've been functioning as a multimedia journalist, writing and photographing both sides of the story. I would love to just lean into the visual side of it, because I think I'm a good writer. I'm a good photographer, but I'm great at neither, because I'm splitting my time between both, and so I would really like to put more time and effort into just the photography aspect of that and maybe be a great photographer one day.
BT Irwin:Yeah, all right. So that means we can all look forward to seeing your photography out there sooner or later.
Audrey Jackson:Hopefully.
BT Irwin:Calvin, you got any big plans, so you're going to become managing editor. You said it's not going to be exactly the same as the role and responsibilities that Audrey had as managing editor. What are you really excited?
Calvin Cockrell:about. A lot of the things are the same that I've been doing. Some of it is a little more grunt work, but I am excited, hopefully, about getting to do a bit more on the ground reporting and going in person to travel to different places.
BT Irwin:That'll be awesome. You've done a great job. Everything you've touched here has been really good. So I know, uh, I know you're not the same as Audrey. What is that? You don't replace Audrey, you succeed her and, uh, so we expect. We expect great things, for we expect great things from from both of you. So thanks for taking time to uh share with our audience today. It was, it was a pleasure to to get to hang out with a couple of colleagues and listen to y'all talk about your work and, audrey, we wish you well.
Audrey Jackson:Thanks for having me this one last time.
Calvin Cockrell:Thanks for having me Hopefully more times.
BT Irwin:Count on it. Count on it. We hope that something you heard in this episode encouraged, enlightened or enriched you in some way. If it did, thanks be to God and please pay it forward. Subscribe to this podcast and share it with a friend. Recommend and review it wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Your subscription, recommendation and review help us reach more people. Please send your comments, ideas and suggestions to podcastchristianchronicleorg. Don't forget our ministry to inform and inspire Christians and congregations around the world is a nonprofit ministry that relies on you. So if you like the show and you want to keep it going and make it even better, please make a tax-deductible gift to the Christian Chronicle at christianchronicleorg.
BT Irwin:The Christian Chronicle podcast is a production of the Christian Chronicle Incorporated, informing and inspiring Church of Christ congregations, members and ministries around the world since 1943. The Christian Chronicle's managing editor is Calvin Cockrell, editor-in-chief Bobby Ross Jr and executive director and CEO Eric Trigestad. The Christian Chronicle podcast is written, directed, hosted and edited by BT Irwin. It is produced by James Flanagan at Podcast your Voice Studios in the Motor City, detroit, michigan, usa. Until next time, may grace and peace be yours in abundance.