The Christian Chronicle Podcast
The Christian Chronicle Podcast explores the news and stories shaping Church of Christ congregations and members around the world.
The Christian Chronicle Podcast
Episode 138: Girls and women are the future of rural and small town churches (Dr. Anessa Westbrook)
Church of Christ congregations in the rural areas and small towns of the United States are struggling with closures and membership losses. What act of God and the Church of Christ together could lead to growth and health?
Dr. Anessa Westbrook is co-director of the new Center for Ministry at York University in York, Nebraska. In this episode, Dr. Westbrook unpacks some of the reasons that so many congregations in rural and small town America are struggling. She reveals some of the approaches that may position these congregations for new growth. That includes a new focus and stronger dependence on girls and women, who are often the heart and soul of church growth and yet are sometimes overlooked.
Link to Episode 119: Unleashing the superpowers of rural and small town churches (Mike Cope)
Link to the Center for Ministry at York University
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Family and friends, neighbors and, most of all, strangers. Welcome to the Christian Chronicle podcast. We're bringing you the stories shaping Church of Christ congregations and members around the world. I'm BT Earley May what you are about to hear. Bless you and honor God.
BT Irwin:Over the last, oh, 20 years or so, we here at the Christian Chronicle have been reporting on how Church of Christ congregations in the rural areas and small towns of the United States are getting smaller and smaller year after year. Some are holding on but others are closing. You can read the stories in the Christian Chronicle's archives. Earlier this year we reported that the Lilly Endowment granted Pepperdine University in Malibu, california, several million dollars to try to reverse that trend. God knows. We here at the Christian Chronicle would like to report on congregations growing and multiplying in rural areas and small towns. Back in episode 119, we had Pepperdine University's Mike Cope explaining how the Lilly Endowment grant money will go to work all over the United States. The basic plan that he laid out in that episode is that several partner institutions, mostly colleges and universities of Church of Christ heritage, will invest portions of the grant in working with rural and small Church of Christ congregations in their geographic regions. York University in York, nebraska, a school with roots and strong ties in the Church of Christ, invested the Lilly Endowment funds in the creation of what it calls the Center for Ministry.
BT Irwin:Now the Center for Ministry is doing a lot of the things you would expect it to do if helping rural and small-town churches is its mission, but it's doing one thing more it's putting special focus on girls and women. Doesn't that just make all the sense in the world? I mean, think about it. Have you ever encountered an active, growing, healthy congregation that did not have girls and women at its heart? And I don't know about you, but I know far more women who brought people to church and led them to faith in Jesus Christ than I know men who did the same.
BT Irwin:So if breathing new life into rural and small town congregations is the goal, could there be any better way to go at it than by activating, empowering, equipping and following the lead of girls and women? York University is counting on it and for that reason its new Center for Ministry brought in Dr Anessa Westbrook. She comes to York University after more than a decade on the faculty at Harding University, where she taught in the College of Bible and Ministry and directed the annual Bloom Conference for Women Disciples. She is a biblical scholar and ministry leader who specializes in helping girls and women discover Christian discipleship. She's here with us today. Dr Westbrook, congratulations to you on your appointment to co-lead the Center for Ministry at York University and thank you for being our guest today.
Dr. Anessa Westbrook:Thank you for having me.
BT Irwin:It's a pleasure, so congratulations to you for your appointment to co-lead the new Center for Ministry at York University. That came about because York became part of Pepperdine University's Lilly Endowment funded Rural and Small Town Initiative, which we've reported on here at the Christian Chronicle. Now, in particular, the Center for Ministry at York will focus on Church of Christ congregations in the Great Plains, Midwest and Rocky Mountain regions of the United States. Since most of our listeners don't live in those regions, what can you tell us about the state of the church and its communities there in those states?
Dr. Anessa Westbrook:Well, I've been at this job an entire month and a half, so I don't consider myself an expert, yet very much a learner, but I have had a chance to have great conversations Of learner, but I have had a chance to have great conversations. Of course, we've been doing a lot of research on this and we really started before the center began on July 1st. But here's some of the things that we're hearing and these are what I would consider to be trends. Attendance is very small. It's very low, in fact. I was speaking to a preacher this week and there were only four people in attendance at the church where he preached.
Dr. Anessa Westbrook:Now most of them aren't that small, but it is small. A number of churches have reported to me that they have aging populations. There have been a few that have said that they really don't have families or members under the age of 50, and so they need help learning how to reach out. We actually have a coaching program that's going on right now. We had a cohort with Rick Gibson and he is trying to help church leaders figure out how to kind of move past some of the mental blocks that they might have or be creative and trying to figure out how to reach out to the community and also address some of the other issues.
Dr. Anessa Westbrook:I've also been doing some reading, so the churches are dealing with things that they really don't feel qualified to deal with A lot of addiction and just social issues that are really a stretch for some of them. Again, there are a lot of churches that are having a hard time figuring out how to connect to the community, how to engage with the younger population around them and attract them to church. That has become very discouraging, so discouragement is a big issue. So there are some churches that are located in areas that have a bigger population, but they're drawing from rural areas. And so those churches, even though they're in some place that is population-wise larger, they're still smaller than you might expect to see, because they don't have a connection with the people around them. And then there's also there's states that have a very low number of churches. I was speaking to one church leader and he was listing off different churches in his state, and there were about 10 to 12 in the entire state.
Dr. Anessa Westbrook:I was speaking with Dr Laird earlier this week, who is actually my co-director for the center, and he mentioned a state where he believes there's only five churches, so they're very spread out and there's a real need for community between them when they have an event. I mean, those church leaders are going to have to drive. They're used to driving, you know, one, two hours easy. Sometimes they have to drive further than that. So it is, you know, it is a big deal. They need support, for sure. Then, of course, there's the fear of what do we do if we can't attract a younger crowd? What are we going to do? Are we going to have to close? And we're hoping that we can help revive and provide support and encouragement to these churches so that they don't have to face that reality.
BT Irwin:It's crazy to think about, because the states that you cover are huge in square mileage, and to think about a huge state with four congregations and you said a couple hour drive. I imagine some of those folks would have to drive. Initiative seeks to start a new trend in growth and health among Church of Christ congregations In a part of the country that is not known to be a hotbed for the Church of Christ. How are y'all going to do that?
Dr. Anessa Westbrook:I mean it is a huge responsibility, I mean it's one that seems very holy, and you look at it and you just wonder, okay, so how can we do this? And pretty early on, after Dr Laird and I got started with this, both of us felt convicted about a couple of things. One is that we should not assume that we know what the churches need, I mean just from a basic standpoint. We cannot assume that we understand their situation. And the second thing we became convicted about is that we need to pour into the leaders of the churches and help them grow and develop. And what we've done is we've tried to identify some people that are regional leaders and that definitely have connections and already have respect with the different churches there, and so we're gathering them up first to try to find out exactly what is needed in these areas and get advice and get a better picture of what's happening. And then we're going to extend from there of what we're attempting to do and, lord willing, with a lot of prayer and God's guidance, we might be able to do this. But we would like to start something that is grassroots, that will last longer than the grant, and so we have about four years left on the grant. But this work, this doesn't need to end in four years. The churches need to have an impact much beyond that, and so that's what we're attempting to do, and we also think that if there's greater connection between the congregations in these areas, as they're facing things that are similar, if that connection and that conversation is established and they're used to having those conversations with each other, that they can help each other brainstorm to try to find solutions, and so that I think that's important. I'm also beginning work on what we're referring to as kind of a women's council to try to help me identify needs of the women in the region, and this is going to be made up of women who are active in their churches. Not all of them will be professionally in ministry, because a lot of these churches don't even have a full-time preacher, and so there are a few that are larger that might have a woman on staff, but we're going to be exploring what is needed among the women.
Dr. Anessa Westbrook:But one of the big issues for us has been trying to locate churches. As you probably know, the Churches of Christ in the United States book is very out of date, and then there's a new group that's come along that refers to themselves as a church research council that is trying to get together a list so that we can find churches, and so we're excited about that. But we're also having our own conversations and doing our own research to try to locate the churches in our region so we can reach out to them. But just to kind of put a plug in for that effort with the Church Research Council, I would just encourage churches to fill that out so that churches can find each other. I think that's important.
Dr. Anessa Westbrook:Another thing that we're trying to do is Dr Laird is actually developing shepherding conferences Now he's been doing these for a long time. He's done four or five, and the ones he's been doing are multi-day events, but what he's developing are eight one-day events. These are going to float around our region and we're hoping that this will help encourage and train shepherds. And then we're also going to have something for shepherds' wives, and so that's also an effort. He is looking for host congregations and we're also still seeking some support for those, and so with this and then other things that we're trying to do, we're going to have different cohorts that are going to zero in on specific needs.
Dr. Anessa Westbrook:I'm in conversation with a professor right now who is going to be doing a cohort called Thrive. That's basically looking at helping people who are experiencing compassion, fatigue or burnout, and so that's something that we're going to be offering. That's probably going to start up in January. We're still trying to figure out details, but we're doing something called a layering approach that's how we're referring to it, as Because we don't believe one size fits all we want to make sure that we have lots of options for different people to get the type of training or encouragement that they need. And then, once we get a lot of cohorts started and so we're targeting having about 10 different cohorts and we're going to allow these larger groups of ministers and people who are already very active in their regions to help inform who's going to be in them, help us start them. But once these are started, then, as they see a need, we're going to contact somebody who can provide for that need, somebody that has the expertise in that area.
BT Irwin:So when I think of a rural or small town Church of Christ congregations and I visit a lot of them all the time as I preach and teach here and there, and those are my roots I think conservative, and I mean that in the best way the belief that some things are essential or if not essential, at least worth conserving and that we should be careful, slow, thoughtful about change.
BT Irwin:So I reckon perceptions about change could be the point of friction for the work you might be setting out to do with rural and small town congregations. How much change do you think is actually necessary for Church of Christ congregations to grow and thrive again in rural and small towns, and what kind of change and how might you help change averse or change cautious congregations, ease their way into it?
Dr. Anessa Westbrook:Well, it's kind of interesting when you think about change because every single person has a different tolerance level for it. So somebody might pursue change just because they like to keep things interesting. Somebody else's kind of gut level reaction to it could be pushing back on it. So when we talk about change in congregations, I think a lot of times we're not specifying exactly what we're talking about. So when we talk about change in congregations, I think a lot of times we're not specifying exactly what we're talking about. So if we're resisting change, does that mean across the board? Are we not going to change anything that we're doing, the way we're reaching out? Of course there's been a lot of discussion over the years about song choice in church and how we construct some of those things. But change in and of itself, if we're just going to look at it not in specifics but just generally, change is necessary. When the world is changing, we've got to figure out new solutions to new problems and the discomfort that comes with change isn't necessarily a bad thing. I mean, I think if we were all being honest with ourselves, the times where we grew the most were times when something was new, where we had to stretch ourselves.
Dr. Anessa Westbrook:Kent Brantley, the Ebola doctor, if you may remember him from a number of years ago. But when he came and spoke one time he said that in the United States our God is comfort and I thought that is such an interesting perspective and I've never forgotten that and we, truly, we enjoy being comfortable. If you just think about how we construct our lives, we want to be comfortable, we want things to just stay in that state, but is that going to overrule the other good things that could be done? And I've thought about that a lot. I've shared that with my students. I've also think about it when I'm in situations that might not be the most comfortable, but I'm doing something that I really feel like is pursuing the Lord's work. Then you know we've got to push ourselves. We can't just stay stagnant.
Dr. Anessa Westbrook:So when it comes to the small and rural churches, especially the ones that are not experiencing a lot of growth, that have little to no, few to no families in them, then something's got to change. I mean, this is all hands on deck at this point and in some of these situations we've got to scramble and churches need to figure out how to reach out to the younger population and really show to them really demonstrate that they care about what they're going through, and that's going to be pushing themselves. It's going to be change. I grew up in Northeast Oklahoma and I remember when the Joy Bus was a big thing and we actually were running two different Joy Buses and we had all these kids coming and it was wonderful. It was great, but it created change and you heard all types of stories about different churches that had all these kids coming. What a wonderful problem, but it created change. The classrooms became more unruly, carpets got messed up.
Dr. Anessa Westbrook:You know there were things that happened and but still like that's uncomfortable. So we don't want to like make our God comfort, we want to push ourselves.
BT Irwin:As you were talking, I was thinking a little bit about politics and I don't like to bring in politics this is not going where people think it is but there has been discussion in our nation lately about in politics, the oldest people have all the power and there needs to be a making way for younger generations to take their own hand at governing in our country. And as I'm about to turn 50 this year, I've said a lot to people recently I don't feel like I'm about to turn 50. I still feel like I'm 25. I don't think of myself as midlife 50. I still feel like I'm 25. I don't think of myself as midlife. I think of myself as young and starting out. And so, on the one hand, when you talked about people in these congregations being over the age of 50, I think a lot of us who are over the age of 50 don't know that we're over the age of 50.
Dr. Anessa Westbrook:Yeah, I always forget my age.
BT Irwin:Yeah, we don't want to believe it. We still feel young, we still feel like we're starting out, and so maybe we're not thinking in terms of getting out of the way or at least reaching down and pulling up younger generations into leadership. So, as you were talking, I was just thinking is a disconnect between generations one of the root causes of congregational decline? Because as we get older, we can't let go and we won't let go and we're not thinking we need to share this congregation with the generations coming up behind us. That's just not even on our mind.
Dr. Anessa Westbrook:Yeah, I would say definitely, and one of the things that happened, especially when we're looking at young families, is the way they view time and events is different and this kind of church there's sports, there's kids activities, and they're on the same level.
BT Irwin:Yeah.
Dr. Anessa Westbrook:And so when they're trying to pick and choose, they're all good things, you know they're good things, but some families may be viewing them as equal, and so I feel like that's something that we definitely need to address. But I know, with the women's ministry that I was working with before we moved, one of the things that we really tried to do was really pursue the younger families and try to get them involved with what we were doing, and so we would try to incorporate the young mothers, we would try to reach out to their kids, and so if we had a women's event, we would try to get some of those kids to read scripture and things like that at the event. So we really need to show them that they're needed, and I think that we probably need to go a little bit overboard with that. I'm always thinking about the situation that came up in Acts with the Grecian widows that were overlooked in the distribution of food. That is such a beautiful, beautiful example of how to handle something that comes up Because the early church didn't say okay, we're going to fix this, we're going to go 50-50.
Dr. Anessa Westbrook:Okay, we're going to fix this, we're going to go 50-50. They pursued these women by choosing seven men who spoke Greek, and we need to go all out in trying to reach the younger generation and try to reach those families and bring them in. And part of that is also saying hey, we need you, we need your skills, we need your input, we need your wisdom and you have something to offer and really just show them that, show them how important they are.
BT Irwin:I'm glad you brought up the thing about time with church, youth, sports, that kind of thing. It reminded me that my wife, who's about my age, of course, and she's a senior leader at an organization I don't think about 40 people, work for her directly and one of the hard adjustments for her as she's moved up the ladder into senior management has been that millennials, in particular, she's told me, millennials, expect to be involved in decision making and know what's going on in a way that, like Gen X, my generation, my wife's generation and then our parents, did not expect.
BT Irwin:And so, working with millennials in her workplace, it's like they want to be in the room where it happens to follow a line from Hamilton, and so when you were talking about how younger generations think about time, I was also thinking that the generations that tend to lead congregations now come from much more of a hierarchical worldview, whereas these younger generations expect to be involved almost immediately and to know everything that's going on, and so when they feel shut out, when they feel left out of those things, then they don't hang around, they go somewhere else, and what you just said reminded me of that.
BT Irwin:One of your areas of experience and expertise is Christian discipleship among women.
BT Irwin:You've brought it up a couple of times here and getting ready for this interview actually surprised me.
BT Irwin:When I look back at all of the church growth or church health experts that we've had on this show, or when I try to think of all the church growth or church health experts that I know they are all men and I'll add to that I've been in plenty of congregations that held their own without men serving as elders or preachers, but I've never been in a congregation that could hold its own without women. That's coming from the grandson and the son of a conservative church Christ preacher and I can tell you in our family we have always believed that women are the backbone and central nervous system of a healthy local congregation. Yet most of our church growth and church health stuff at least that I've consumed over the last 20, 30, 40 years seems to focus the most on men and what they're doing. So as you enter your new role with the Center for Ministry, how will you put forth the growth of girls and women as crucial and essential to the growth and health of rural and small town congregations?
Dr. Anessa Westbrook:Yeah Well, I appreciate you sharing those observations with me. I've had a number of preachers over the years say something very similar.
Dr. Anessa Westbrook:I had a prominent preacher one time say that if you want to know who's really running the events at church, drop by my building during the week and you're going to see it full of women that are busy doing things. So women are very important and kind of like you mentioned about the millennials, they want to be heard, and this is something that I found very interesting because being heard and being a part of the decision-making is so important to them. I have seen churches that have made moves to try to have more public roles for women but have not involved them in decision making, and that's really what they're craving is to be heard and to be able to make an impact in their church. So I'm glad you brought that out, but I wanted to add that on that is similar with women, as with millennials, and so with the center, one of the things that we are committed to is trying to help both men and women in their roles and preparing to help their churches and preparing for ministry in whatever capacity that they are going to be a part of it. And, like for my background of coming from that small church in Northeast Oklahoma, my grandmother I had two grandmothers that were very involved in church. One of them was a long-term missionary, the other one was a volunteer and did so many different things, so I had some great examples. I didn't have to look very far for mentors my mom was a Bible class teacher and so that was really helpful.
Dr. Anessa Westbrook:But trying to encourage churches to use the women that they have and have them invest into that next generation of women and mentor them, I think that's really important From the situation where we are right now in society, and especially in these smaller and rural churches, because we need everybody. We just do not have the luxury I don't know that we ever really had this luxury, but we do not have the luxury of only going and utilizing half of our congregation, of only going and utilizing half of our congregation. We really do need every person in our churches to view their life as ministry and try to figure out how to use the gifts that God has given them. And I mean take a look at what's happening often in our society, different issues that come up. If we're really going to make an impact, then we've got to think about how to use every member of our congregation, even the kids, like even encouraging them. We need absolutely everybody to deal with some of the things that we're facing right now, and so what we're going to try to do is we're going to provide training and we're going to incorporate that into our events, into our offerings.
Dr. Anessa Westbrook:I'm looking at starting some things on the campus of York, working with some of the students there who are interested in going out and serving. We're going to be trying to help women get placed in internships and I don't know how challenging this is going to be up here, because it's a little easier in the South, you know but we're going to try to help them get those opportunities and it could be that that we'll be trying to place some in the South as well and some of the Southern churches. So if you have internship possibilities for students, please send it my direction and I'll try to see if I can get somebody connected to that, see if I can get somebody connected to that, but also just trying to encourage churches to help women discover who they are. One of the things that is an issue a lot of times is that women do not see themselves as playing a crucial role, and I remember nobody said this. Okay, so I'm going to tell a story on myself, but no one said this to me.
Dr. Anessa Westbrook:But when I was at school, I prepared the best I could for the mission field.
Dr. Anessa Westbrook:I took the classes, I did the training, I went to the conferences, I did all of it.
Dr. Anessa Westbrook:But in my heart of hearts, I really believed that my husband would be the one to answer the hard questions.
Dr. Anessa Westbrook:As soon as we got to the mission field, one of the things that I discovered was that that just wasn't the case. So we're going to distinguish between him and me and so helping women really take their face seriously, because a lot of times we're going to be in situations and we're going to be the ones that are called upon to answer those tough questions. It could come from kids, it could come from somebody at school, it could come from somebody at work, but we all need to be prepared to answer. We need to be prepared to answer those questions, and so that's really important. So those, and then we're also we're going to have a retreat for women who are working in ministry, and then we're developing some ministers' wives' retreats, because we believe that the wives of ministers are so important, and if the wife gets burnt out, sometimes the husband ends up leaving ministry to focus on his family. So we're going to do our best to try to encourage them as well.
BT Irwin:I reckon the vast majority of all church growth and church health, articles and books and programs of maybe the last 50 to 100 years in the Church of Christ came from men, and so I want to ask what might we be missing? By having such a male-dominated school of thought on how the church grows and thrives?
Dr. Anessa Westbrook:Yeah, well, first of all, there's something that's a little bit different with female spiritual development from men's spiritual development, and it could be because of what we're doing, because of our focus on men. But we have these younger boys that have opportunities early on, which is wonderful. I'm 110% behind this. Okay, so this is great. However, a lot of times, the younger women do not have the same type of focus, and so what ends up happening is, as they're sitting there, I mean, basically they become observers. So when we put them into that position, we're not energizing them for growth.
Dr. Anessa Westbrook:Women have so many gifts and, as we talked about previously, one of the things that we see is that women are so active in churches. See, is that women are so active in churches, and so we need to be encouraging that, but not only encouraging it, but also holding it up and showing that it really is. It's making a difference, encouraging people to work within their gift set. I think that's really important. When it comes to men, hopefully, there's some sort of you sort of distinction between who's good at what. It could be not a man, so maybe you all feel that you're kind of pushed into the same mold sometimes, but in some churches, women are pushed into the same mold and like, for example, what are the options here? You can help with the potluck or you can teach children's classes, and we overlook a lot of the other opportunities that might show up in outreach or different parts of the church. If a woman has leadership skills in her school, where she's a teacher, how could a church utilize those? If a woman has financial skills, if she's in that field, how could she be of assistance to the church? And I know that's a bigger conversation. But, like, exactly what do they have to offer? And we're going to have to think and be creative of how to use it, because we do, we're missing out on those when we're not incorporating them.
Dr. Anessa Westbrook:And then, if women don't have an active role or a planning role, there's one specific area that, for whatever reason, women often end up being involved in, and that is reaching out to visitors. You know. So, like those types of outreaches, I believe that women are natural connectors. They're really good at watching out for other people. They have those nurturing skills and those nurturing abilities and there's some discussion about is that because of childbearing, because they're formed for childbearing? That could be the case.
Dr. Anessa Westbrook:I don't know, but it does pop up a lot, and so women they're the glue. They're the glue to a church and really help the church stay connected in a way that's special. So when we're not focusing on them and when their voice isn't heard, especially when it comes to planning, then we may be losing out of incorporating some of those things that they have to offer into that. The other thing. So if this was a podcast about preparing preachers for ministry, one of the things I would have said would be okay, listen to your wives, because they have antennas and they pick up on things, and women seem to have a really strong sense of discernment, and so when we're not listening to them and incorporating them, we're losing out on that as well.
BT Irwin:When you were talking about the church, we make these assumptions about people. We treat women as monoliths and men as monoliths, that because they're a man or a woman, they must be good at this and not that. And so when you're talking about the girls being observers, I thought it's because if we don't actually know the people in our congregations and how they're gifted as individuals, then we'll never be able to call out those gifts and call them to use them in the body of Christ. I do want to ask though maybe you already answered this question but what attributes of women make them specially fit for making disciples?
Dr. Anessa Westbrook:I want to point out that some of the men in congregations are also observers.
BT Irwin:Yeah.
Dr. Anessa Westbrook:So they don't have a chance when we're overemphasizing that one hour. If they don't have public gifts, then they may not be utilized either. So this is really this particular issue definitely spans across both genders, kind of as you brought up too. But as far as what attributes of women really really gift them for making disciples at the first one and let's keep an open mind when I say this one so and that is shepherding. So this is not saying that they're elders, but it's the gift of shepherding, if you literally think about what that looks like, where somebody is taking care of a flock of people. This pops up a lot on spiritual gift inventories, and so I've actually had to answer this question quite a bit, because women will get this gift and they'll say, okay, what is going on here? Because I am not an elder, I will not be an elder. But what does this mean? And I'll ask questions like when you go to church, do you notice who's there, who isn't there? Do you follow up on people? If somebody has a prayer request in Bible class, do you check on them later to see how they're doing? I mean, somebody that's going to do that is going to have that gift, and so they're very good at that, they're going to go out of their way to do it. A lot of times they don't have as many social concerns, I would say they're the ones that are chatting after church, checking in on people and things like that. It seems like I'm the last person to leave the building a lot of times because I'm talking to people, and a lot of other women are like that too. And then, of course, like we talked about before, connecting being able to help people connect whether that's somebody that visits the church, and if a church out there has a women's ministry this is something that could be good for them to get involved with is basically what is our follow-up process when somebody comes to visit? Is that something that they can assist with too? Kind of coming up with ideas on how to handle it, or connecting different groups within the church, trying to keep open eyes to see who's not involved.
Dr. Anessa Westbrook:I believe that involvement ministries would be it would be really wise for them to incorporate women into it, because they do reach out pretty naturally to other people and then, like you mentioned, trying to figure out what people's gifting are. It's like what is that Like? What are they good at? How do we use them in the church. And then the big thing, I think and this could be true for both men and women, but I really feel like women get into a lot of circles pretty naturally in the community and if we could just really help them see how important that is and I don't know if the listeners out there are familiar with missional churches or missional thinking, but basically what that is is, as you're out in the community, you keep your eyes open to see what's happening.
Dr. Anessa Westbrook:What are the needs? And I'm putting this very simply, but basically, what are the needs? Do we see God opening up a door that hasn't been opened up before? And how are we going to meet that need? And so women, as they're going about and they're interacting with different people at work or different community organizations, they are very well equipped to hear the needs of people, be able to identify those, and then you're creative with how to meet that need. Now I would say that, as this is happening, I'm sure this isn't just a Church of Christ problem, but we tend to overthink things. Let's spend a year trying to come up with a perfect plan, but with this type of approach, we need to just come up with something that we think might work and experiment, to just give ourselves permission to try it out. And then communication is another one that I think of. And then we've also mentioned picking up on things, dynamics or potential issues that other people may not pick up on. You know, those are some attributes that come to mind.
BT Irwin:My, my degree is in marketing and you know, those are some attributes that come to mind. My degree is in marketing and one of the things about marketing is there's something called propensity marketing, which basically means it's a lot easier to ride a wave than to make a wave.
BT Irwin:So a really good marketer knows how to spot a wave building and grab their surfboard and ride on that wave rather than try to make waves. And a lot of churches, I think, are trying to make waves, and so what you're saying is that women in particular may be very well attuned to the waves. That are building their communities, and so they can be the ones who say let's grab our board and catch a wave. Yeah, men may want to make waves, right.
Dr. Anessa Westbrook:Yeah.
BT Irwin:But those waves that are already building in the community are where you see God at work.
Dr. Anessa Westbrook:Yes.
Dr. Anessa Westbrook:I mean God's amazing. Some of the doors that he can open up, walls he can bring down, I mean he's at work. We've got to believe that God is at work in our communities. We just need to look and see what he's up to.
Dr. Anessa Westbrook:My husband and I we were missionaries in Hungary. In the mid-90s is when we moved over and as we were working with people, they would tell us stories sometimes about how they didn't have anybody in their family that believed in God, except for maybe a grandmother, but it wasn't like an active part of their life, but they knew he was there. Then they would cite different things that happened. They felt like God was trying to reach them or guide them and it was really interesting because at the time a lot of different people were saying let's take God to Eastern Europe. God was already in Eastern Europe and we have to believe that God is at work in our communities. We just need to figure out what he's up to. We need to keep our eyes open and women I mean especially equipped to be out there and kind of keep those feelers out.
BT Irwin:Yeah, agreed, agreed.
BT Irwin:I was thinking a little bit about how in my life, in community development work and in congregations, there are certain groups of people that there's a power dynamic in play here and more privileges is often an assumption that I don't think they even recognize in themselves, that they have nothing to learn from those who have less power or less privileges.
BT Irwin:I could give you specific examples but I won't right now. So in the Church of Christ in particular, where men do the preaching and the teaching and the eldering, I feel like there can become this it may be subconscious assumption among men that they have nothing to learn from women, that they cannot be taught by women, and, if I'm picking up what you're putting down, as girls grow up in that and women grow up in that, that leads to it could be a subconscious belief that they have nothing to teach men in their congregation. And so I'm just wondering how would our churches be different if we listened to girls and women more, If we believed we had something to learn from them and we want to be taught by them? How would that change the church?
Dr. Anessa Westbrook:Yeah, well, first of all, let me say that we really we need to recognize that we can learn from anybody and maybe, by human nature, maybe we're trying to preserve our sense of self-worth, but we tend to think that just because I'm X or just because I have this training, I can't learn from somebody who doesn't have what I have. Where I can have a conversation with somebody with no college degree maybe they've got an eighth grade education and that's it and this person could be gifted by God with the spiritual gift of wisdom and really speak something to me and into my life that I need to learn. One of the uncomfortable thoughts that I often have and this pops up when I was teaching in New Testament and Old Testament especially is when Jesus and God would interact with people and would send people. If you think about the prophets, I mean, it's not like these guys were YouTube stars or somebody that was really attractive. I mean, some of them were just flat out weird, you know, and that was who God wanted the people to listen to, and so when I think about that, I thought, okay, so if God was trying to get our attention today and he sent us somebody that was outside the norm. That was not somebody that was popular, not somebody that was attractive.
Dr. Anessa Westbrook:Bible says, you know, jesus wasn't an attractive person. His personality, I believe, was probably very magnetic. I believe his love for people oozed out of him. But if they're not fitting what we believe an influencer should look like, like what if he was trying to speak to us through something like that? So through someone like that, then would we listen?
Dr. Anessa Westbrook:And so I really think, on a broader level, we need to be challenging ourselves to learn and listen to different people, and you know so when it comes to women, if women would have a chance to really share their perspective and share their point of view, that is something that is rich, and one of my favorite Bible classes that I've ever attended was one that had a number of people throughout the class, from all different fields, share how they viewed a particular section of scripture. Every single one of them viewed it from a different lens, and that made the scripture richer. So when we listen to women and listen to their perspectives and what they see, that is going to make what we're doing. That will make scripture Christian life. All of it will be richer, and I believe we would be more compassionate. Women tend to be compassionate and kind of rush in and get involved with situations. That's something else that we haven't really discussed, but yeah, I think that's important.
BT Irwin:Well, dr Anessa Westbrook is the new co-executive director of the Center for Ministry at York University. If you are listening to this, in the American heartland, the Midwest, the Great Plains, the Rocky Mountain states, she and the team at the Center for Ministry are there to be a resource for you as you seek growth and health in your local congregations. We'll put links in the show notes to the Center for Ministry so you can get in contact with them. Dr Westbrook, thank you for being our guest today.
Dr. Anessa Westbrook:Thank you so much for having me.
BT Irwin:It's been a pleasure. We hope something you heard in this episode encouraged, enlightened or enriched you in some way. If it did, thanks be to God and please pay it forward. Subscribe to this podcast and share it with a friend. Recommend and review it wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Your subscription, recommendation and review help us reach more people. Please send your comments, ideas and suggestions to podcast at christianchronicleorg and don't forget our ministry to inform and inspire Christians and congregations around the world is a nonprofit ministry that relies on the generosity of people like you. So if you like the show and you want to keep it going and make it even better, please make a tax deductible gift to the Christian Chronicle At ChristianChronicleorg slash donate.
BT Irwin:The Christian Chronicle podcast is a production of the Christian Chronicle Incorporated, informing and inspiring Church of Christ congregations, members and ministries around the world since 1943. The Christian Chronicle's managing editor is Calvin Cockrell, editor-in-chief Bobby Ross Jr and president and CEO Eric Trigestad. The Christian Chronicle is written, directed, hosted and edited by BT Irwin and is produced by James Flanagan at Podcast your Voice Studios in the Motor City, detroit, michigan, usa. Until next time, may grace and peace be yours in abundance.