Episode 148: Church of Christ congregations and ICE may be on a collision course in Chicago

Lakeview Church of Christ and Northwest Church of Christ, both in Chicago, have long histories ministering to their neighbors and welcoming strangers into their pews. For decades, migration trends mean that many of their members and neighbors are from countries beyond the United States. 

For both Lakeview and Northwest, embracing and supporting these newcomers has always been a simple matter of obedience to the Great Commission of Jesus Christ and the laws of the kingdom of God as the Gospel of Matthew 25:31-46. 

Changes in attitudes among some U.S. voters, however, led to a new federal administration that promised to deport 10 million illegal immigrants in 2025. Federal law enforcement is now deploying personnel and tactics that are affecting Lakeview and Northwest members and neighbors. 

Which raises difficult questions for congregational leaders. What will they do when obedience to the Christ could bring them to not comply or not cooperate with the U.S. government? What will they do if law enforcement tries to enlist, search or surveil their congregations?

In this episode we hear from Chicago ministers Walter Pierce (Lakeview Church of Christ) and Carlos Estrada and Patrick Odum (Northwest Church of Christ).

Link to an archive of The Christian Chronicle's coverage of Lakeview Church of Christ

Link to an archive of The Christian Chronicle's coverage of Northwest Church of Christ

Donate to support this ministry of "information and inspiration" at christianchronicle.org/donate

Send your comments, ideas, and suggestions to podcast@christianchronicle.org

Healing Hands International will give you or your congregation a community and a direction to put the life and work of Jesus into practice. Learn more at hhi.org.

Chapters

• 0:00 Calling To Chicago And Matthew 25
• 5:56 Changed Politics And Tougher Enforcement
• 10:35 Fear In The Pews And Neighborhoods
• 20:02 Eyewitness Stories Of Intimidation
• 26:58 Profiling, Panic, And Community Impact
• 33:23 Scripture, Law, And Compassion
• 40:50 Higher Allegiance And Civil Disobedience
• 47:43 Us Versus Them And Kingdom Solidarity
• 55:04 Preaching The Kingdom In Chicago
• 1:00:08 Closing Reflections And Next Steps

Transcript

BT Irwin: 0:03

Family and friends, neighbors, and most of all, strangers, welcome to the Christian Chronicle Podcast. We're bringing you the stories shaping Church of Christ congregations and members around the world. I'm B.T. Irwin. May what you are about to hear bless you and honor God. We could say that this episode has its origin in a typical morning chapel assembly at Harding University back in the late 1990s. I think it was my senior year. That morning, members from the Lakeview Church of Christ in Chicago made what we can only call a sales pitch to graduating seniors. They wanted us to move to Chicago and join their congregation. They made a compelling case that appealed to me as a young Christian trying to get serious about following Jesus. They reminded us that Jesus commissions us to quote, go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, end quote. But they said, all nations were now coming to Chicago as the city attracted more and more immigrants from all over the world. If young Christians like me wanted to obey the Great Commission, we could find no better place to do it than Lakeview Church of Christ. So as it turned out, I graduated from Harding and moved to Chicago a few months later, and I became a member at Lakeview Church of Christ. That became one of the great formative experiences of my Christian life. Until then, I'd never been part of a congregation that was more serious about bringing to life the Gospel of Matthew, chapter 25, verses 31 to 46. That's the passage where Jesus says that those who inherit the kingdom of God are those who feed the hungry, welcome strangers, clothe the naked, care for the sick, and visit those in prison. These were essential practices at Lakeview Church of Christ, and for good reason. Our neighbors were hungry, thirsty, lonely, naked, sick, and imprisoned. I don't remember talking much about whether the people around us were quote unquote worthy of anything the church had to share with them. For us, at the time, ministering to our neighbors just as they were was just plain old obedience to God. That was more than twenty-five years ago. Today the people of the nations are still in Chicago as they were back then, and as three Gospels record Jesus saying that the poor will always be with us, the city is still full of hungry, thirsty, lonely, naked, sick, and imprisoned people. And like twenty five years ago, Church of Christ congregations like Lakeview are still announcing that the kingdom of God is near. Ministry to their neighbors is the proof. But some things have changed. For one, a block of voters in the United States grew strong in their opposition to the nations being in the United States. These voters are not all the same. Some simply want what we might call common sense immigration control, which they might describe as reforming the asylum and visa systems while securing our borders. These voters tend to lean toward granting many illegal immigrants the help they need to become legal citizens of the United States, while deporting illegal immigrants who have committed violent crimes. Now, polling indicates that most Church of Christ folks in the United States are likely to be in this group. A slim but vocal minority holds more extreme positions, demanding the expulsion of some or even all illegal immigrants and their children, and in some cases, even if those children are U.S. citizens. They may even favor the expulsion of asylum seekers and refugees, including those who fled to the United States because they face religious persecution in their own countries. These voting blocks helped bring a new federal administration, which campaigned on the promise of 10 million deportations in its first year. That is a number that experts said the federal government lacked the infrastructure or organization to accomplish, as the current one-year record for deportations is just over 400,000 under the Obama administration in 2012. While these factors made it unlikely that the new administration could come anywhere close to deporting 10 million illegal immigrants in 2025, the administration ended the year claiming to have deported 600,000. It may take some time to verify that number. Chicago turned out to be one of those high population centers that the federal government is targeting. And that is affecting Church of Christ congregations like Lakeview and Northwest Church of Christ, both of which have appeared many times in the Christian Chronicle for their Great Commission work among the nations that reside in their neighborhoods and worship in their pews. In my experience, encountering Church of Christ congregations that feed, shelter, clothe, heal, and come alongside those who need help, they don't ask their neighbors to show that they have their immigration paperwork in order before they help them. They just help their neighbors, whoever they might be, and usually with few questions asked, because perhaps it seems to them that Jesus himself does it that way. But as federal law enforcement is showing that it is willing to surveil and even enter churches and schools, Church of Christ congregations like Lakeview and Northwest have to figure out how far in they are willing to let the government. They have to figure out how far out they are willing to take their practice of the Great Commission in Matthew chapter 25, verses 31 to 46. What if obeying Jesus means disobeying or disregarding the government? How much are these congregations willing to risk? These are questions that they may have never imagined they would need to answer someday. But today they're going to wrestle with those very questions. Walter Pierce ministers with the Lakeview Church of Christ in Chicago's Uptown neighborhood, Carlos Estrada and Patrick Odom minister with Northwest Church of Christ in the Mayfair neighborhood. I'll note that all three of these ministers have appeared in Christian Chronicle Media in the past because of their work in their multicultural, multilingual, multinational congregations and neighborhoods. Walter, Carlos, Patrick, happy new year. Thank you for being here with us today. Thank you. Thank you. It's good to have you all here. So uh let's start with this. Some of your members uh andor neighbors are immigrants or refugees, and they come from immigrant or refugee communities there in Chicago. What have you seen and heard from them over the last few months?

SPEAKER_02: 6:55

The fear is maybe the common denominator of this situation, especially those who they don't have documents and and and sometimes they have children who has a problem in the States, they are terrified with the idea of uh being separate from from their parents, from their children. And um that's what I think is what I have seen is many people leaving with fear. I know some people who are staying home, they don't leave, uh, except for if if they are if they work, they go to work and directly to home. But of some people that I know, some ladies that I know, they stay at home, they don't live. And even they have problems uh with picking up their children at school because they are very afraid. So they have asked favors to people who can go to school and pick them pick the children, their their children up from school.

SPEAKER_01: 8:08

Yeah, from my perspective, uh BT, I would definitely pick up on that, in addition to just the uh level of anxiety and fear that Carlos mentioned, as far as you know, people not knowing what's going on, you know, just kind of uh just just thinking about what I've heard from from immigrants specifically and migrants here in our neighborhood. You know, there's a feeling in a sense that it's it's being motivated by nefarious reasons. So it's more specifically not just people who may be here who may be undocumented, but uh folks who are, you know, more specifically Hispanics who are undocumented, who feel that it's being motivated by race and racism. And so those definitely the anxiety, the fear, and and sort of a sense that this is coming from a a place of of xenophobia.

SPEAKER_03: 9:05

We all I also have uh run across some some of our members and some of our food pantry who kind of interestingly who who feel like they came the right way, quote, or or even the wrong way, who uh are are kind of for the the the crackdown. They're they're you know they're sort of pro uh uh a harsher immigration policy. And I I find that interesting. And I I think it's it has to do with just the identification with a more majority culture and the the the stronger culture and and the kind of wanting to be seen, I think, as part of of that that part of America, the the you know, the middle class, upwardly mobile part of America, and and and feel that that you know they are they are in a position where they're they're not necessarily having some of those same uh some of the same issues that they're they're they're poorer and more struggling uh countrymen may be having. And I I just think that's interesting that that there is this sort of even identification among some immigrants and migrants with the administration's harsher policies.

BT Irwin: 10:24

Most of the people who listen to this podcast don't live in Chicago, don't live in Chicago land. And whatever they hear about what's happening there, they have to get through the news, whatever news they choose as their source of information. And so I imagine that folks imagine a lot of things in Chicago happening right now in Chicago, but I feel like the three of you being brothers in Christ on the ground there, working with congregations in the city, and and uh the Christian Chronicle has reported on your congregations many times, so people may recognize your names. I feel like your eyewitness account, your eyewitness accounts of what's happening there would go a long way at helping to describe the situation to people who are listening to this around the world. So, particularly because your congregations have always served so many people in your neighborhoods, and those people come from all nations. I mean, it's just amazing the nationalities that that come to your congregations for for help. So when people think about law enforcement cracking down on undocumented immigrants here in the United States, you know, they they've seen some images of of people being arrested uh outside of schools, maybe law enforcement hanging around churches. What does it actually look like there in Chicago? You describe the fear that some people have, but uh, have you seen or have members of your congregations seen anything? And what could you describe for those who are listening in the rest of the world and not in Chicago?

SPEAKER_02: 12:04

We have a good friend who visits our church regularly, and I want to share this situation. I don't have his permission to use his name, so uh we'll just we'll call it Tomas. And he's a very nice guy, he's looking for Jesus, he's getting answers about Christianity. And a few months ago, he was in prison because he had committed what we can say a crime in the past, in the past, we are talking about maybe 20 years ago, and of course, he uh he he went to prison for that crime, it was a minor crime, but because of that situation, he was cashed up by eyes and he went to prison for I guess for a month. And it is it is sad because you know, yes, there are people here uh from different countries, Hispanics and non-Hispanic, Hispanics, that has committed a crime, maybe a minor crime in the past. And now they maybe they repent and they try to live a different life. Now, this guy that I I told you he's doing well, he's a hard worker, he's um a very honest, very honest man. Thanks God, we were praying too much, and he wasn't deported, but he was very scary about he was very afraid about what is gonna happen to me. We had a chance to talk with him, to pray with him, and and recently about two months ago, he he left prison and he's still attending church. Hopefully, we we uh hope that he will become a Christian. But this is just a story of someone who is trying to be a someone who contributes to this society. That he did a mistake, yes, uh he did it, but he he's trying to do what is best now and and and he's looking for Jesus.

SPEAKER_01: 14:32

And yeah, just a couple of things come to mind when you ask the question. First of all, I thought about my my wife has a a staffing business on the on the west side of Chicago and in a neighborhood that's very heavily Hispanic. And uh so one of the the tactics that was was used or was kind of you know people from from Border Patrol just kind of hanging outside of her business. And her her business happens to be next to a hospital. And so, you know, the the stance, and you know, obviously we don't know people's motivation, but it felt to her, and I think to a lot of people, and and one of her, you know, her her employees is a is a legal uh Mexican migrant, a migrant from Mexico. But you know, the sense was we're kind of here as a stance of sort of intimidation and presence of making sure that we limit your, you know, your visibility or you know, trying to enforce. So it came off to her as if, okay, we want to hang around places that we know potentially people will be that that we think may be here undocumented, and we're just gonna kind of park ourselves here, not in a sense of because I think for a lot of people, you know, uh migration enforcement was seen as we're going to look for specific people. But this did not look like an enforcement looking for specific people. It looked like, you know, we're here to intimidate you and to and to be present and to make ourselves visible so that you don't come out, is what it looked like and appear. So that was one aspect. And the second thing is, and it's it's a similar kind of thing, is this my my children go to a high school that's very builds itself as the most diverse school in in not just the city, but in the uh in the state of Illinois. Over a hundred nations are represented there. And there's been many times when you know ICE has been near the campus, and you know, they've had the lockdown, and you know, there's just been the sense of, you know, are they gonna come into the school or not? Uh Chicago public schools did not allow ice to come in unless they have a warrant specifically, but nevertheless, those kinds of things become disruptive, and it's and and it just brings out a sense of like the we're we're this isn't a targeted enforcement, but it's more of this is a way to control a population. You know, and and I guess I'll say the other thing. I mean, I I do understand BT the the the Patrick kind of mentioned about the mentality of the of people who are are immigrants and who have come legally. And I understand there's a there's a level of complexity to the story for sure, but mean those are just two of the things that I've seen that I've experienced.

SPEAKER_03: 19:15

Yeah, uh intimidation is what I think both Carlos and Walter alluded to. Intimidation, I you know, terror, you know, just the the idea of of influencing and controlling and and just terrorizing a population. And that's that's I think that's been the strategy. In Albany Park, we had uh my neighborhood, we had one of the most diverse neighborhoods in the city. We had a you know, an ICE uh few ICE officers show up just in a neighborhood with kids out on a Halloween parade. They were you know showing off their costumes on the block, just kind of kind of you know parading along, and ice pulls up and there's a confront confrontation, they're lobbying tear gas canisters on the street. All of this you can see uh in the media if you if you if you google it. And and I mean it it's it was just a terrible scene. Thankfully, nobody injured, seriously. No, no, but it it was just an awful, awful scene. And it just illustrates that this is happening all over the city, these kinds of things. We we've had neighbors when our food pantry has been open on Saturdays, we've had neighbors who have come up to us and said, I'll be out walking my dog with my whistle. With the idea being if if ice shows up on the block, you you blow the whistles, and everybody knows what's happening, and and we can get people to to some sort of place where maybe they're safe, whether inside the building or or or whatever. And you know, it's just a terrible, it's a terrible thing to stand out there, and I've I've I've had to stand out there on Saturday mornings with my, you know, just scanning around every time a black car rolls by, I'm you know, I'm on edge, you know, wondering uh is this, you know, is this who is this who this is. It's it's just it's just it's been like that all over the city, especially during the the big push. Now that's sort of rolled back a little bit now, but but uh during that big push, that midway blitz, whatever they called it, yeah, it was there's terrorism comes to mind and there's sort of sanctioned terrorism where people are just. Made to fear, made to be afraid all the time. Several articles in Chicago newspapers and news outlets about the effect on the Hispanic business community of all of these, you know, of this push, you know, just just shopping districts, Latino shopping districts in the city that are just empty and desolate because as Carlos mentioned, people aren't leaving their homes. People are staying home. I mean, let's be honest about why this is happening. Uh, it's being done because it's easy to go pick up a bunch of people and sort through them later, you know. You know, go go go just scoop up whoever you can, whoever looks like an immigrant, you know, whatever that looks like, and and just just sort through. And then you've got numbers to report. And it doesn't matter. I know the news outlets portray Chicago as this lawless place where you know where you can get get shot just sticking your head out the door. I've I've lived there for 30 plus years, and I don't believe I've ever heard a gunshot. You know, it there it it's it's not anything like I was uh having a conversation with one of my mother's doctors last a couple of weeks ago, and and he's you know he said, Oh, you're from Chicago, and he's he's a he's an immigrant, he's a Korean immigrant. He's like, Oh, you're from Chicago, what a terrible place, you know, just uh and and I said, No, no, it's not. And you know, we kind of went this back and forth, and I finally just said, I think you need to be examining my mother instead of telling me about my city. But but it it's it people just feel like they're experts on Chicago for some reason. You know, they've watched news outlets or they've you know read particular sources and or seen something on Facebook, and it's not that. And the people they're picking up are not uh vastly you know, the huge majority are not criminals. And I want to make that clear. The people who are being scooped up are people going to pick up the children, like Carlos said, or they're going to doctor's appointments, or they're going to buy groceries. They're not they're not criminals, you know. Some are, I'm sure, some have had criminal histories or have committed crimes in their past, perhaps, but but we're not talking about criminal games roaming roaming the streets that ICE is heroically stopping. We're talking about average people trying to scrape out a living, some of whom are believers in Jesus, brothers and sisters in Christ, and and they're just being scooped up.

BT Irwin: 24:12

What we're talking about, it sounds to me like what we're talking about is not just cause, but profiling people and taking them into custody, and some of them, many of them may be U.S. citizens.

SPEAKER_04: 24:26

Yes.

BT Irwin: 24:27

So it sounds like, hey, if you look, if you have brown skin, we're gonna take you. And you know, maybe you turn out to be a U.S. citizen, maybe not. But it sounds like the situation you're describing then is you know, U.S. citizens may be afraid to go out on the street because they don't want to get picked up. And they may just get picked up because they quote unquote look like they're an immigrant. That that seems to be what you're describing.

SPEAKER_03: 24:53

And I just want to add, I mean, I we've got you know uh kids in our youth group at church who, you know, every Sunday we pray that you know their fathers won't get picked up, or you know, that or the who are, you know, there's just we have these, it's just a constant reality for for a lot of people, uh, some of whom are very young and and and very confused about what's happening.

BT Irwin: 25:16

Church of Christ folks tend to be pretty big on following the rules because we're book, chapter, verse people. And so it just may seem to a lot of people in our Church of Christ audience that you know, if people break the rules to enter and stay in the United States, then they should expect to be afraid or maybe expect not to get any help when the law catches up to them. So, what response do you have when people make that argument with you? Because I reckon you run into it quite a bit.

SPEAKER_02: 25:44

Yes, this this is rather a complicated question. I mean, it is a sufficiently polarizing issue within our faith communities, unfortunately. But I'll begin by saying that if we claim to be a church that bases its teaching on scripture, we cannot overlook this. What we must question is our our motivations. I mean, why why do we do this? Why resist an undocumented immigrant? Are the reasons racial? Are the reasons cultural or political or or or something something else? Recently we we were studying the book of Jana, and we notice God's compassion for the Assyrians, and despite their wickedness, despite their cruelty, God showed his grace to them. And this is kind of attitude we should uh show to others, even to those who come to this country, in many cases forced by circumstances to work hard in order to help their families back home. Because after all, God has compassion on whoever he chooses to have compassion on. And throughout the scripture, we have the testimony of God having compassion on the unfortunate, uh, the naked, the despidered, the needy, regardless of their immigration status. In Matthew 25, we find that passage that the translator has called the judgment of the nations. And it is curious that there the judgment is not based on violation of rules, but rather is based on the lack of compassion for those in need, the hungry, the naked, the sick, the imprisoned. And this should make us reflect if we are a faith community based on the biblical text. This should make us reflect. We cannot overlook this compassion of our savior for those in in similar situations like the undocumented immigrants in our time.

SPEAKER_01: 28:32

I mean, I think we have to think about kind of uh an immigration theology. I just think about sort of the incarnation of Jesus in a sense was one who migrated to earth and migrated not you know as a part of uh of the powerful class, but you know, as a as an oppressed, as a part of an oppressed group within the Roman Empire. And so part of it is you know, thinking about that that theologically, as far as, as Carlos mentioned, we're called to to minister to, to not oppress the alien, the story of the good Samaritan, as far as not thinking about the nationality or or status of a person, but just uh serving those who are in need. But I think the second thing that that kind of came to mind as well that you mentioned is I think that there is a in terms of people who may feel like, you know, this is a law, you know, we're helping lawbreakers, or there is a I think there needs to be a distinction made between what is illegal and what is a crime. Those are two different things. I mean, obviously a crime falls under what is illegal in terms of against the law, but it it is it is a civic, a civil violation to to migrate to a country illegally, but it's not a crime. You would just get deported back to your home country as I understand it. I'm not a lawyer, but it's not something in and of itself that is a person, I don't think should be labeled they should not be labeled a criminal. They are certainly doing something illegally, and and I understand the need to punish that, but I think that's important to make that distinction to say that we're not uh, you know, entering a country illegally is not something that you would get arrested for and detained.

SPEAKER_03: 30:28

Yeah, I I understand, you know, Romans 13, submit to the authorities. I we I think we all understand that that that text and and and understand that Paul's talking about a godless pagan, uh not godless, but a pagan empire, not a not a an authoritarian empire, not not you know, not a democracy. And he says submit to the authorities. So I so I get that, but I I do think there's a higher law for Christians that that you know, the law of love. Uh um the book, chapter, and verse also says that you know that the one who loves has obeyed the law. And and I think we need to take that into account, that love is sort of the higher standard that we're to follow. Compassion and and grace demand that we we recognize that as Carlos mentioned, so many people come from terrible conditions to come to the United States to try to keep their families safe, which by the way, we just are in a the time of year where we talk a lot about a family that that left the jurisdiction of a tyrannical king to try to keep a baby safe. That that's that's something we should understand and and I think relate to. Why isn't that the book, chapter, and verse that we quote? You know, why isn't that the book, chapter, and verse we're we're interested in? I think that's some important questions to answer. You know, what are the what are the texts that we major in and why is that? And why do we overlook so many others? Um, I I was writ re- I read the hiding place every couple of years because I just think it's a wonderful book. And I was rereading it recently, and it it it reminded me, I wonder how many times Christians quoted Romans 13:1 to their family, you know, if they knew that they were hiding Jewish families from the authorities. Of course, we need immigration policy and immigration laws, but as we've talked about, we're not those laws and policies aren't being enforced uh in a just way at all. We have to do that with compassion and justice and dignity, and that's what the church ought to be advocating. I think the administration is interested, particularly in terrorizing communities and that's and dehumanizing people. And I don't see how as believers in Jesus we can be at all supportive of that. And let's be honest, it's not being done because there's this great commitment to law and order. It's being done for votes, it's being done to ingratiate a voter base, some of whom are believers in Jesus, some of whom are in our own fellowship who are already inclined to dehumanize people and and and then elect folks who will you know solve the problems that they're creating. You know, why isn't it book, chapter, and verse and common sense to clothe the naked and feed the hungry and care for the sick and minister to the imprisoned? Why aren't we quoting that on Facebook? Uh, you know, those those are important questions that I think we have to be wrestling with. Why aren't we wrestling with the implications of the Good Samaritan, for instance? And I'm afraid it's because we identify more with mainstream American culture and we're using the text to support our inclination, the inclinations we already have, instead of actually witnessing to a different way of life. Lust of flesh, lust of the eye, pride of life, that sort of thing.

BT Irwin: 34:08

You know, growing up in the uh Church of Christ, with the Church of Christ preacher for a dad, one of our one of our fears in the 80s and 90s, and and this was passed on to me, was government overreach into the church. And, you know, one particular fear that church leaders had when I was growing up, probably still do, is, you know, would the government uh, for example, force us to officiate and recognize same-sex marriages in in our churches? And that was always that was always kind of cut and dried with church leadership. Like that's where they would say, hey, we draw the line that we're not going to obey the government if they tell us that we have to recognize and support a marriage that we we don't believe is biblical. And now here we are. What's so fascinating about this conversation with the three of you right now is that the Christian Chronicle, one of the most frequent stories to appear in the Christian Chronicle over the years is Church of Christ congregations that are ministering to and with either immigrant communities or refugees in their cities. If you go back over the last 20 years, you will find so many stories about congregations that are doing this, including stories about your own congregations. And as I was preparing for this interview, I was thinking about some of those specific congregations that their members and their pews are immigrants from all over the world. They have invested heavily in coming alongside and loving their neighbors, wherever those neighbors may be from. And some of those congregations in the last few months, when I reached out to them, were afraid to talk to us about their work because they were afraid of making themselves targets for law enforcement. And I thought, wow, this is a fascinating, fascinating time. We used to be afraid of government overreach on things, sexuality and marriage and things like that. But now here are these congregations that just by the virtue of what they've always been doing are now afraid of government intrusion into the lives of their members and neighbors. So here's what I'm setting up is this question. You know, church leadership leadership at these congregations has to wrestle with are we willing to obey that higher law, Patrick, that you just mentioned and put ourselves at risk here. So, you know, Patrick, when you talked about people with their whistles, if they see ice out in the neighborhood, they blow their whistles. Or I've talked to church leaders that will deliver food now to people's homes so they don't have to come to the food pantry and take a risk. How do how are how are your congregations trying to balance out, you know, we want to love our country and we want to be obedient to the law of the land, obviously. But at the same time, how do we carry on the work that we've always been doing if that carrying out that work puts us at odds with the law and law enforcement?

SPEAKER_02: 37:26

This is maybe a difficult question because someone will always be offended from our ans from our answers. But I think before we are citizens of United States, before we are we inclined to support any of the parties we I would say before I am Democrat or I am Republican, I am a citizen of the kingdom of the Lord. But at the end of the day, there must be someone who is my my kin and who has given me a word or words, principles, teachings, and has revealed his will into me. And at the end of the day, I will do what this what this Lord, what this king tells me to do.

SPEAKER_01: 38:27

You know, I think that we do need to, you know, in in specific situations pray for discernment, as far as kind of what is you know, what is the will of God, you know, what and how does that look in terms of working with uh with federal agencies and and federal enforcement. Uh we have not had to face it at our church yet, but with our congregation. But you know, I think you know, for just just thinking of a specific situation, I mean, we would not uh allow an officer to come in unless they have a a specific warrant. In order if they wanted to speak with one of our, you know, attendees or members or someone at the pantry. And so understanding that that's not, you know, uh if that is civil disobedience, so be it. But you know, I think that that is, you know, kind of the one of the lines that that you know we've tried to draw that you just cannot uh simply because a police officer asks to see someone, it doesn't necessarily have to comply with that person. It's not a question I normally ask people when I'm helping them, you know, what is your legal status? You know, I mean there's we we have suspicions, and obviously as we get to as relationships grow, you find out. But I mean, I think our stat our our posture, you know, as a church should always be, you know, love, service, grace, you know, send speaking the message of redemption and forgiveness in the name of Jesus to people. And uh, but but kind of in terms of working with with with government, that's kind of how we've taken a line of, you know, there's unless there is a warrant, you're coming with, we don't feel a need to have to comply with with what you're asking to do merely because you're a police officer.

SPEAKER_03: 40:24

Sometimes I think that the the question of either I the either or I'm running into is we either continue to minister to the poor, to the marginalized, to those who are migrants, immigrate, immigrants, and we don't know their status. As uh as Walt just said, we don't it's not like we ask at the door, you know, are you, you know, uh let's see your green card or whatever. So you know, it's either we continue to minister to to those folks in our neighborhood, in our community, or we appease longtime members who are maybe you know have have had this politicized for them and are you know interested and are not interested in continuing to support a congregation that is serving those who are deemed enemies of the country for whatever reason. And I think that's the either or that we're more likely to run into. And you know, you have a longtime member who's served the congregation. well for decades, who and and who, you know, contributes pretty well, by the way, who says, you know, it's it's us or them. I hope we choose wisely. I hope we choose, you know, what is right if we're forced to do that. That's that's the either or that I keep that we've run into some and I think we'll continue to run into. You know, as far as as the government goes, as as Walter said, there are there are ways to comply with rules and laws and and and and sometimes though, I mean sometimes though there are unjust rules and laws that we just cannot comply with as Christians. And we have to have the discernment and the the leading of the spirit to know that and and I think that requires the whole church. It requires the whole the whole church to to help discern that and to to think about what is you know what is the best thing to do in a situation where there's maybe an unjust law an unjust rule an unjust policy that that we're pressured to comply with.

BT Irwin: 42:39

I want to land a little bit on a little bit of your Bible reading and teaching here because this is not a show about politics or policy. It's about the church and it's about the imagination of the church and the scripture that informs us. One of the things that one of the arguments I have heard from a lot of people and and I think I think it's a it sounds like a common sense argument but it's it's simply it's not right for us to take care of take care of others before we take care of ourselves. And you know the analogy of when the oxygen mass drops you know put it on yourself before you put it on your child. And and so there's this idea I've heard it among some Christians that it's not right for people for people to to come and ask us to to give them all of our stuff if we're not taking care of ourselves first. And we have needs that we need to take care of in our congregations or our families or our communities our economy that kind of thing. And so it's it's just right good and godly for us to care for ourselves and then we'll have something to share with others. And I will add that from the highest offices in the land we've heard this argument and we've heard it couched in in biblical terms and Christian terms in recent months. So I just I I want to know how the three of you as Bible scholars and teachers respond to to that argument.

SPEAKER_02: 44:07

Perhaps what we should consider is whether we are called to give the needy or left over or to be good stewards of the resources God has placed in our hands enough to help those who who are loved by God even if they are not part of our faith community that was a common complaint among the the prophets in the Old Testament and God rebuked his people for neglecting the poor and the foreigner and the orphan and and and the widows and Jesus taught that the whole of depends on loving God first and second loving our neighbors ourselves and that doesn't mean that if our neighbor is has not a legal status I shouldn't help the golden rule is is perhaps is another principle that we can cite that principle applies here we wouldn't want to be treated as a second class or inferior citizen and because of that we are not allowed by the law of God to help you to to give you and to feel a need that you have so that's what we think we we need to consider that there are plenty of information in the Bible for us to assure that this this is what God wants we to do help the needy help the poor help help help the people in independently if they have a legal status we need to show Jesus through our duties through our works and through what we do.

SPEAKER_01: 46:09

And I just think about you know who are we defining as us you know because like for the for the kingdom and the kingdom of God I mean that is made up of all nations that are you know us I I I understand the sentiment of the question in the sense of we're you know obviously you know we want to we feel a specific responsibility for our families and and others who are are close to us our loved ones in that respect. But you know us is I mean first of all we are united by the blood of Christ over whatever our national status or racial status or or any of those sorts of statuses that we identities that we often elevate we're called to be among the poor and to see people as not just as kind of them but as we're in relationship with with them. And so anyone who is who is being oppressed unjustly and being you know intimidated whether it's by a a lawful government or not you know we should be in solidarity of saying you know this is we're standing with we're standing in a place of God not in a place of God's justice but we want to be on the side of God in terms of of what is just and right.

SPEAKER_03: 47:38

Jesus talked about what you do when you when you do these things or do not do these things to the least of these which tells me nobody escapes God's notice and nobody escapes God's range of concern and and nobody should escape escape ours. There is no least so least that that we are not called to help and to to love and to care and and to have compassion and I think that I think we've got to wrestle with that we got to wrestle with the way some of these questions actually what they're doing is they're exposing the the prejudices and the tendencies we already have and I think you know it's easy going back Bt to your analogy of same-sex marriage you know it was easy for us to make that call right because you know not officiating a same-sex marriage kind of goes with some of the assumptions and and and beliefs and and maybe sometimes prejudices that we already have um but when you're talking about you know aiding people who are immigrants and migrants and who are perhaps don't have legal status here in this country you're you're you're really confronting some prejudices you know you're you're really you're really forced being forced to deal with some prejudices and and I think that's why it's harder. I think that's why so many of our our congregations and so many members are struggling with that I'm reminded of Jesus' words that even the pagans love those who love them and who are close to them. The real kingdom trick right is can you love the enemy? Can you love the person who's not like you at all and and who you just don't even understand. That's that's the question I think that we we have to be willing to wrestle with and it's it's hard. It's not an easy question to wrestle with at all.

BT Irwin: 49:43

I love that can we imagine them as us and us as them yeah yeah all right I'm gonna end this y'all have given me a lot of time today so I just have one more question to ask you. I think all four of us preach never heard any of you preach yet I hope I will one of these days over the last few years I've laser focused my preaching on making the clearest possible announcement that Jesus is the Christ and that the kingdom of God is at hand. And that announcement comes with a call to believe to turn in the direction that the Spirit of God is going in the world and to submit to total immersion in the life of Jesus Christ, which embodies the kingdom of God and prepares us to live in the age to come. So as much as some of us might prefer that that message land in a personal private place that doesn't have much to do with the outside world it's impossible to tell people to get ready for a kingdom that is coming soon without slamming into the kingdoms that are already on top here and want to stay that way. And this is where preachers get in trouble for being quote unquote political in the pulpit even if they never utter a single word about policy or politicians. So I I'm just curious here at the end what what are y'all preaching these days and how are you delivering the gospel for these times?

SPEAKER_02: 50:52

I recently finished a sermon series based on for Christmas of course based on uh John John chapter one verse one to fourteen and it was an excellent opportunity to remind our church and our friends that the word who became flesh is life and is the light of mankind everyone not those only with a legal status and and one of the key points I addressed was the sufficiency of Christ in contrast to our self-sufficiency and I present Christ as the one who created us and gave us life but also sustained that life and and I spoke of uh about how christmas confronts us in in and with our sinfulness with our wickedness and how Jesus demands an appropriate response of that face that involves a personal relationship with him rather than just a simply believing in him but in an intellectual way and I conclude with an invitation of receiving Christ as the as the gift the gift of God to us and I think this this is what is very important to resonate and and uh do I have a religion do I practice just the intellectual religion or do I uh practice a relation with God that transforms my thoughts my life my criteria my my perspective my cosm I don't know if this is the correct word my cosmovision and uh just want to finish with this it is it is striking that the incarnation of the word according to John reminds us that even though Jesus came to his creation he came to his own specifically specifically to to Israel he was treated as as an immigrant as an immigrant and he was not received he was not welcome and and that was something that I resonate with the church we need to welcome Jesus and we need to pray for so that we will be welcome even if we don't have unlegal status.

SPEAKER_03: 53:36

Wow yeah kind of um in terms of my own uh preaching kind of specifically recently at least especially in light of the the season just being reminded of you know in the season of of of advent of arrival of anticipating the coming of the kingdom of uh of of Jesus and so you know what does that look like to wait for the arrival of Christ and what does it look like to be to anticipate that I appreciate the general point you made BT as far as you're preaching about you know preaching about the the coming of the kingdom and thinking not just about our own individual salvation and kind of as I've thought about preaching more and more as part of it obviously but I don't want to to certainly downplay that but uh recognizing that we are we are called to a different kingdom and as we put that in people's in our people's imagination and my imagination to not just think about things and from an individual perspective but the understanding that we're entering a kingdom with new rules new laws that as Pat mentioned about loving our enemy as opposed to just merely loving the people who are like us Carlos whether it's spirit led or not but I am actually starting a series of the book of John so just a lot of our preaching would be talking about sort of the the coming and arrival of of who Jesus is and and so our people being centered in what what that looks like and that as a king is coming you know how do we respond to that the coming kingdom that Jesus represents yeah the kingdom has has been a big thing for me for I for before all this really even the kingdom for me is is something that I think is so central to Jesus' message it should be central to ours too and the relation of that to the gospel you know you know the kingdom of God is near repent and believe the good news that was Jesus's gospel that was Jesus's preaching and it should be ours too and you know that that gospel I I kind of grew up in churches of Christ with the notion that gospel is you know the gospel is about personal forgiveness of sins and the assurance of going to heaven when you die and I've never left that I still believe that that that's part of the gospel but it's just part of the gospel. The gospel is much bigger than that. And uh the gospel calls us into mission you know what's you know what's God up to in Albany Park you know what's God up to in uptown what's God up to here in Chicago and why does he have us here now? If you can cultivate that sense of mission I think a lot of this takes care of itself right if you can really cultivate that sense of mission that God has us here to proclaim the good news of Jesus to our neighbors as they are the neighbors that we have now and not the neighbors we had in our childhood or 30, 40, 50 years ago you know the neighbors that we have now that's God's mission to us and for us and and that's how we share in his work in the world. And I I think a lot of these questions that we're asking begin to sort themselves out if you can cultivate that deep sense of mission.

BT Irwin: 57:09

When I was growing up in the 80s salvation was very much a personal thing. The only thing that mattered is my personal salvation will I go to heaven when I die but as I have studied scripture intensely over the years and lived life among the people of God and among our neighbors I'm convinced you know if you want to take it back to the Great Commission just by itself which we love in the Church of Christ my salvation is bound up in the salvation of others. So nobody goes to heaven alone. And so as I'm listening to the three of you talk about what the spirit is moving you to preach I'm I'm hearing this I this idea that maybe a lot of us are coming into starting to wake up to the fact that I'm not saved alone right my salvation is bound up in the salvation of many others and so I can't think of this as a personal private thing and other people go their own way. We're inheriting a kingdom together. So thank you for sharing uh sharing with our audience a little bit about what you're preaching on and thank you uh for for making time um Carlos, Walter Patrick to uh share with us what's going on in Chicago and your congregations now give us a little insight uh into what's happening there and uh we sure do appreciate everything that you are doing there in your city for your members and your neighbors and uh people all over the world are praying for you that you will be able to continue to do that work uh and be very fruitful in the lives of those that uh you love as you love yourselves. Thank you for being here. Thank you. Thank you for joining being with y'all Walter Pierce ministers with the Lakeview Church of Christ in Chicago's uptown neighborhood Carlos Estrada and Patrick Odom minister with Northwest Church of Christ in the Mayfair neighborhood. You can read more about them in the links we'll post in the show notes. Walter Carlos Patrick thank you for sharing with your Church of Christ family all over the world today grace and peace to you all. We hope that something you heard in this episode encouraged enlightened or enriched you in some way if it did thanks be to God and please pay it forward. Subscribe to this podcast and share it with a friend. Recommend and review it wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Your subscription recommendation and review help us reach more people. Please send your comments, ideas, and suggestions to podcasts at Christianchronicle dot org. And don't forget our ministry to inform and inspire Christians and congregations around the world is a nonprofit ministry that relies on your generosity. So if you like the show and you want to keep it going and make it even better please make a tax deductible gift to the Christian chronicle at Christianchronicle.org slash donate. The Christian Chronicle podcast is a production of the Christian Chronicle Incorporated informing and inspiring Church of Christ congregations, members and ministries around the world since 1943. The Christian Chronicle's managing editor is Calvin Cockrell, editor-in-chief Bobby Ross Jr., and president and CEO Eric Trigestaff the Christian Chronicle Podcast is written, directed and hosted by B.T. Irwin and recorded in Detroit, Michigan, USA editing show notes and transcript services by Kinsey James, mastering mixing and sound quality by James Flanagan. Until next time, make grace and peace be yours in abundance