The Christian Chronicle Podcast

Episode 149: How the church can make peace in a world that seems to want war (Tryce Prince)

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These days, the heat and wind of the political environment is kindling even in some Christians what seems to be an appetite for rage, revenge and violence.

When the church of Christ allows itself to be set ablaze by politics, how can it demonstrate the grace and peace of the kingdom of God? How can it bear witness to the reconciling and redemptive work of Jesus Christ? How can it be a refuge for those who are exhausted and wounded by the acrimony of our times?

Recorded in late 2025, this conversation with Tryce Prince addresses these questions head-on.

Prince is director of the Carl Spain Center on Race Studies and and Spiritual Action at Abilene Christian University, contributes to the Good Culture Show podcast and writes at the First Sunday Substack. He recently published an essay, "Fighting Fire with Plants" in Christianity Today. 

As the church searches its soul and tries to find solutions to the crises of these times, Prince points to a branch of the Christian family tree from recent history. The Black church in the United States responded to hateful and violent circumstances in the 19th and 20th centuries by cultivating a "beloved community" of proactive and purposeful love and peace-making.

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BT Irwin:

Family and friends, neighbors, and most of all, strangers, welcome to the Christian Chronicle Podcast. We are bringing you the stories shaping Church of Christ congregations and members around the world. I'm B.T. Irwin. May what you are about to hear bless you and honor God. Whenever I come across a preacher, scholar, or thinker in our Church of Christ community who produces work that finds a ready audience among the broader community of Christ believers and Christ pursuers around the world, I take notice. It's always worth celebrating and giving thanks when someone whose Christian formation is happening in our Church of Christ community becomes a channel for an idea that Christianity in general wants to consider. And that's what we have here today: an idea from a thinker whose roots in our Church of Christ family tree surely shape his outlook on what it means to be the church in the world today. The idea is one that I reckon a lot of people would place in the category of politics, or to be more specific, the way Christians consume, engage, and think about politics. I think that in the year of our Lord 2026, most of us listening to this in the United States know what I'm talking about. For some of us, politics has become a drug that we're pretty sure is killing us, but we just can't quit it. For others, politics has been like a fever that gives us the aches and chills and night sweats, and it just won't break. Some Christians try as hard as they can to ignore it all, stay out of it. But even the act of ignoring politics seems to be such hard work these days that the exhaustion of staying out of politics is almost as bad as the exhaustion of being in it. And this has made us grouchy, to say the least, tense, touchy. It's like no matter how much I adore and love my wife, when I'm hungry, angry, lonely, or tired, the probability goes way up that I'm going to be short with her or snap at her. I have a feeling that among our Church of Christ congregations here in the United States, our political climate is surely making more of us hungry, angry, lonely, and tired. The question is, how can we possibly demonstrate and embody the kingdom of God when we're in a constant state of agitation over the kingdoms of this world? Our guest today discovered in one branch of our American Christ-believing, Christ-pursuing family tree a rich, but often missed or passed over legacy of Christians engaging in politics in the United States without succumbing to them. In this legacy, he is finding Christians from the not too distant past who can show those of us today how to be peacemakers in a time when politicians declare war in the name of God, and how to love enemies in a time when politicians declare it right, good, and godly to hate enemies, even to death? How might the Church of Christ become a people whose presence has a cooling effect in the hellish heat of these times? How might we have a noise-canceling effect on the rancor of rage all around us? How might we be a people among whom our weary and wounded neighbors find peace, but also a people whose very presence in our country makes peace that spreads in our society? Not a cheap peace that comes from silencing our enemies or separating from them, but the reconciling and restoring peace that is the will of God for all creation in Jesus Christ. Our guest today has some thoughts on that. Trice Prince is director of the Carl Spain Center on Race Studies and Spiritual Action at Abilene Christian University. He's a contributor to the podcast The Good Culture Show and the book Religion Matters, What Sociology Teaches Us About Religion in Our World. He writes broadly at the First Sunday Substack and recently contributed an essay to Christianity Today, which reaches about 4.5 million evangelical Christians around the world each month. That essay is the reason we invited him to talk to us today. Trice, thank you for being our guest. Thanks for having me. Okay, so we're going to get to the title of your essay in a minute. But before we get to that, you tell a story about an instance that maybe led you to write the essay. And I think it was during the news and social media hubbub surrounding the prayer service at the National Cathedral in Washington, D.C. during the presidential inauguration back in January of this year, 2025. Could you tell us that story?

Tryce Prince:

So that event was a major point for me in giving me the language for what would become this essay. But the impetus for the essay had been brewing for a few years now. As someone who studies race and religion, particularly the experiences of black Christians and predominantly white religious spaces, I'd been thinking a lot about what motivates us and what motivates our actions, our interactions, specifically our witness. And this idea of being motivated by hatred had been something that was brewing in my mind. And I had written it on it in other places, but never like this. But when I saw the prayer service at the National Cathedral and saw a minister pleading for mercy, specifically for refugees and immigrants. And then the reaction to that plea was one that really politicized the phrase mercy and turned it from a biblical command, turned it from a conversation of human decency, ethics, morals, to a conversation of politics. I was really, really disappointed and on the verge of despair. And what my initial reaction was, was to respond in a political manner, was to respond in a manner that a frustration against who I perceived to be the other side. Not necessarily the other side in terms of partisan politics, but the other side in terms of viewpoints, beliefs, ethics, morals, and the frustration at what I believe to be a core biblical uh theme and concept of mercy that grounds our entire faith in a lot of ways, turned into something that should be shunned and really mocked in response to the minister's plea, set something afire, no pun intended, in me. But what I began to discern is that what was set afire in me was not of the spirit. It was a triggering and an emblazing of my flesh that saw a distinct difference between me and someone else, and fed on that difference by feeding into the lie and what I believe to truly be a lie, that they are an enemy of my particular viewpoint. And so my response, as I say in the piece, was to question whether or not really persuasion was possible. Is it possible if we cannot draw on biblical principles like mercy to make pleas on behalf of the marginalized, to those in the highest seats of power in our nation and world? Is there a better nature that we can even persuade? And so I was wrestling with that question of is persuasion even worth it? Or should we be bound forever to a kind of gladiator-style rhetorical culture war that really seeks to defeat an ideological enemy versus coming to some sort of unity and unified position that makes room for disagreement, but does not dismiss the possibility for unity, even though disagreement might still exist. And so I was wrestling through those questions in the aftermath. Um, and and kind of what I what I settled on is that that initial inclination to see someone who view viewed the world differently, who had a different perspective as an ideological enemy was one that I wanted to rid from my heart in pursuit of what I believe to be walking in the spirit of God and following in the spirit of Jesus that does not respond to someone who has a different viewpoint, viewing them as an ideological enemy, but that pursues common ground between someone that may have a differing opinion.

BT Irwin:

One line that I hope uh every Christian who reads your essay will underline is when you write, quote, I was so discouraged by the state of my country that I lost sight of my own better nature. End quote. Unpack that a little more for us. Tell us what it means. You've just started to describe that self-awareness that was awakening in you. And do you believe this describes many or maybe even most Christians in the United States these days?

Tryce Prince:

Well, I think when we look through the lens of social categories, it's easy to question when someone has differing uh viewpoints or differing categories that they may define themselves as, whether or not we have anything in common. Because so much emphasis is put on what how you categorize yourself, what defines you, or how you define the world around you. What I was questioning was whether or not individuals even cared to find common ground with me or with others that that viewed differently. When I turned that question around to myself, is really where the answers kind of became clear, where I was disregarding my own better nature and and replacing the the inclination to see myself as a human being created in the image of God and another person the same. I was viewing the world through those same categories that define us socially, as opposed to what should be our ultimate category as a child of God.

BT Irwin:

You seem to sense that God is not so much leading you away from something, but leading you towards something. That's the sense I got in your essay. Uh, something you may have forgotten but rediscovered. So am I on the right track with this? And tell me if awakening does describe what was happening, where did you sense that God was was what was God leading you toward?

Tryce Prince:

God was leading me away from the ways of the world and towards the ways of the religion of Jesus that is intimately concerned with matters of the heart and how the heart produces fruit in our lives. And of course, we often think of that image of the production of fruit and think of the biblical passages where good fruit are produced, where fruit that gives life is produced. But there's also a rotten fruit that can be produced whenever the root of the tree is poisoned. And I think in many ways, when we think about the role of the spirit in our life, we I think to Galatians 5 so much, Galatians 5, 16 through 17, where we are not only living in a world where the spirit of God exists, we are also living in a world where what the spirit of flesh and the spirit of the prince of the earth exists, and that being Satan. And so we have to recognize that our inclinations are being formed by matters of the flesh and the spirit of God. And the goal as the Christian is to what be refined by the spirit of God and to rid as much as possible, because of the freedom that we've been given in Christ, the the flesh from our lives. Now, of course, it's not entirely possible until we are glorified in heaven. Um, that's the role of Jesus' atonement. But a part of the great call of Christians is to continue being refined, to continue that process of sanctification. And so that includes how we exist socially and our interactions with others. And so that awakening for me was just trying to do what you know my spiritual mentors have always encouraged me to do. And what I see Jesus reminding us so much about is to be attentive to the matters of the heart, to be attentive to how our inclinations are being formed, and to try our best to be prayerful that our inclinations and the matters of our heart and our posture towards other people is being formed by the spirit of Jesus and not uh formed by our flesh.

BT Irwin:

A big part of my discouragement over the last, I don't know, 20 or more years of my adult life as a Christian is seeing the church, seeing Christians fight fire with fire is the way that I would put it. It's almost like if you can't beat it, then join it. And so we're fighting fire with fire, and I think we justify that because we're on the right side, right? Yeah. We're on the quote unquote right side. Now, the title of your essay is fighting fire with plants. So I'm gonna let you explain that on your own in a minute. As a Christian on a Christian mission in these times, in this nation, under these circumstances, in your essay, you say you were looking to the black freedom struggle here in the United States, which was a campaign that grew out of and took direction from the black church. You were looking to the black freedom struggle for a methodology for being Christian in the politics of these times. So correct me if I'm off the mark, but I get the impression that the picture you may have in mind there is the civil rights movement of the 1950s and 1960s and its uh nonviolent tactics. But you write that perhaps what your Christian ancestors did in the black freedom struggle is not, quote, what is needed to stop the corrosive cultural wildfires that increasingly animate the United States, end quote. Could you please tell us how you came to that conclusion and what it has to do with fighting forest fires?

Tryce Prince:

Yeah. So my conclusion that we need to resist the inclination to fight fire with fire, I think you're right in that interpretation. I'm actually using the Black freedom struggle and particularly the individuals from the Black Church as an example of fighting fire with plants, as opposed to an example of fighting fire with fire. What was wrong was my interpretation of what my ancestors were doing. I'm also writing this essay in the time of the Palisade and Eton fires in California. And there was this moment where I was watching a news story where a homeowner was standing before their home that was in a fiery, ashy rubble. And when they were being interviewed about all they had lost, they grasped for hope and they grasped anywhere, but they found an image of new grass that was coming from the ground. This green grass in the midst of an ashy, smoky rubble, as an example of hope that maybe rebuilding in this same land that has been destroyed is possible. So I was thinking about fire. I was thinking about being uh something green in the midst of destruction and desolation. And so that image of fighting fire was something that, you know, we hear a lot, that that phrase we hear a lot. So I was working through that and thought that that's what my ancestors were doing in the Black Freedom struggle. But I did not feel like fighting fire adequately captured what folks like Howard Thurman and Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and Rosa Parks and Fannie Lou Hamer and so many others were doing. Though they were standing up to evil and the evil of racism in particular, they were not using the same tactics of those that marginalized them. I actually see it as an example of fighting fire and corrosive tactics with life-giving tactics, with life-affirming tactics. And this is something that's really important about Dr. King's teachings. What he talks about is that racism corrodes the soul. He also says hatred and bitterness corrodes the soul as well. And so if I'm responding to another's person's hatred with a similar kind of corrosive response, then what's happening to their heart is also what's happening to mine. But what would it look like if we followed the leadership of the black church historically that sought to respond with the corrosive racism they faced, not with a corrosive tactic of their own, but a life-affirming, a life-giving tactic. And so my interpretation of what that was was wrong. I thought it was fighting fire with fire, but I recognized that it was fighting fire with plants, with life.

BT Irwin:

You talk about the method of creating a fire break to stop the spread of a forest fire. So firefighters light a controlled burn to burn up some ground so that there's nothing, there's no kindling there once the forest fire reaches that point. And it's called a fire break. And this is what you explain in your essay. And so when you talk about the the black freedom struggle and the non-violent tactics that that led to those images of fire hoses and dogs and state troopers uh turning their batons on peaceful marchers, people marching for for peace and the right to vote, people doing lunch counter sit-ins and you know being beaten for it. They I kind of equated that in my head with a fire break, right? And so there's this raging fire of hatred and racism, and the the leaders of the civil rights movement, they created a fire break. In other words, they weren't going to be lit on fire and fight back with violence and hatred. They kind of absorbed the hatred and the violence into themselves, into their very bodies, gave their very bodies. But then you go on and you kind of turned us in this direction a moment ago. Uh, most people know Martin Luther King Jr., but in your essay, you point us to one of his mentors, Howard Thurman, and you write that Thurman was, quote, concerned with redirecting our spiritual resources to cultivate communities that can be reservoirs of love, not hatred, end quote. And I think that line, redirecting our spiritual resources, is really fascinating because it calls into question. Where the church is directing its spiritual resources now, uh, if it's even thinking about that at all. And then I think the more troubling question is maybe with all the good intentions in the world, might we be directing the church's spiritual resources toward what ultimately turns out to be reservoirs of hate? And I I I have Dr. King's language of the beloved community. I don't think you mentioned beloved community in the essay, but I couldn't help but think about that. So I wonder if you would paint a picture for us of what it looks like to be a reservoir of love. And how does that manifest the kingdom of God in times like these?

Tryce Prince:

Fighting fire with fire is a strategy that's used, it's often referred to as backburning. And the idea is that if you burn ahead of the fire in the direction that it's going, once the fire reaches what you've burned, it will have no more grass, plants, fuel to continue, and it'll fizzle out, which allows you to control the fire. And many times wildfires are unpredictable. Winds change, weather patterns change, and where the direction in which you believe the fire is going could actually be the opposite direction. And what can happen is that your backburning, fighting fire with fire, can have unintended consequences that actually strengthen the fire as opposed to quenching the fire. We believe that being as loud as the other side or having the same uh energy of hatred or difference being what defines our witness oftentimes can fuel us to have the exact opposite intentions, the exact opposite outcomes that we intend. A green firebreak is oftentimes around a field of crops. It's a tactic that oftentimes fire-threatened areas will use as a preemptive strategy, knowing that their area is susceptible to wildfires. The idea is that once a fire reaches that green fire break, instead of having dry grass, instead of having grass that's susceptible to being triggered by a fire, it will be grass and native plants that hold water and therefore quench the fire and slow the fire down. So it decreases the energy, it decreases the momentum, it decreases that power, that fuel. And so I like the image of a green fire break to describe what I believe was happening in the Black Freedom struggle. Oftentimes, the tactic, unfortunately, on behalf of the authorities, was to try to incite some form of physical altercation so then they could justify their use of force, whether it be police dogs, water hoses, as you mentioned, or jailing the individuals and the demonstrators. But when they respond with nonviolence, you see, I think, a picture of what I'm trying to argue for with this green firebreak. It is not responding with tactics that escalate, but responding with tactics that de-escalate and that seek to find common humanity. So the green fire break for me is an example of that, but it's also a preemptive strategy as opposed to a reactionary strategy. So fighting fire with fire, backburning is a tactic that happens after the wildfire starts.

BT Irwin:

Yeah.

Tryce Prince:

Building a green fire break happens before it takes time, it takes intentionality, it takes cultivation. And it also happens away from those kind of high pressure moments. So if you think about the Black Freedom Struggle, they didn't just decide one morning whenever they woke up that they were going to go and participate in nonviolent direct action. They were meeting together. They were teaching and having strategy meetings about what do you do whenever you are spit on? What do you do whenever you are hit, when you are dragged, whenever you are pushed? How do you control your emotions, those inclinations that often encourage you to fight fire with fire to respond with love, to respond with peace? And they would go to places like the Highland Training Facility in Tennessee to train about with nonviolence. They would meet at local churches to train. There's an element of discipline, there's an element of intentionality that's present whenever you think about what they were doing. So a green fire break, I think, communicates this preemptive strategy as opposed to a reactionary one.

BT Irwin:

Here's something that maybe a lot of people who are listening to this that don't come from the black uh community and the black tradition have never considered before. I was I was listening to you talk and I was thinking about the remarkable, extraordinary, amazing love that had to be cultivated in the black church during that time in order for them to even do what they did. Going back to Howard Thurman, this is something that I think maybe a lot of people miss. How was that reservoir of love cultivated in the black church and around the black church during that period in time? And what example is there for us in the church in these times?

Tryce Prince:

Remember where the black church was founded, which was not, it didn't begin with Richard Allen in the AME church, though that's where we often say the black church was founded. It began at a site of struggle, at a site of marginalization on the plantations in the American South, where you have what historian Albert J. Rabateau refers to as the beginning of the invisible institution, where black folks who were enslaved were gathering in what's called hush harbors, which you can imagine a wooded area with low-hanging trees that kind of concealed the noise, where black folks would gather to participate in worship services at this time. So whenever we think about what you have happening in the hush harbors, in the slave cabins, in the songs and the spirituals that black folks would sing on the slave plantation, is a building of a theology of being created in the image of God when the world says you are inferior. A theology that there is a man named Jesus who sees you and who loves you. A theology that calls us to be brothers and sisters, unified underneath a belief in Jesus, and a theology that recognizes that there is a spirit in this world that seeks to seek, kill, and destroy. And a part of that spirit, those enslaved black people, were making a theological analysis that slavery was evil, that racism was evil, that segregation was evil. And so the religion that they chose to practice was a religion rooted in liberation and freedom and love and the fact that they were created in the image of God. They were not inferior. So that is the root and the tradition that the Black church is drawn from recognizing the true religion of Jesus, but also recognizing the inconsistencies of what Frederick Douglass calls the Christianity of the land and seeking to follow the religion of Jesus that calls us to what? Love thy neighbor and love your enemies. Think about Jesus and the Canaanite woman. You think about the Good Samaritan. You know, there are separations of groups in the time of Scripture that Jesus is operating and he's calling individuals to transcend that, those boundaries. He's calling individuals to defy those boundaries in pursuit of the unity of all Christians in this new man, this new race that he is inaugurating with his ministry on earth. And so that is the model that the Black Church is drawing from when they call out the evil of racism and of segregation and of slavery, and they call for the abolition of enslaved peoples, when they call for the breaking down of Jim Crow segregation, when they call for the correcting and writing of historic inequalities. They are calling upon a faith that's rooted in the model of Jesus.

BT Irwin:

You quote, you quote the Apostle Paul in his letter to the Church of Christ in Rome, chapter 8, verses 1 to 11, which is not a text that a lot of Christians turn to in Romans when they want to talk about politics these days. But I feel like this is an this is an amazing application of this text to our situation. And I'm so glad you did it. Uh, tell us why Romans chapter 8 verses 1 to 11 is such a relevant text for where the church finds itself in culture these days.

Tryce Prince:

Romans 8, 5 says, For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the spirit set their minds on the things of the spirit. For the for to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the spirit is life and peace. Race and racism, when we think about hatred, bitterness, partisanship, polarization, I think we have to ask the question where those things are leading? What's the logical end of those, of that fruit, that bitter fruit? And then we have to ask our question: where is the spirit leading us? Where is the religion of Jesus and the model of Jesus leading us? Is it leading us to see those who may have different views than us, those who may have different racial categories than us, those who come from a different background than us as different? Or is it leading us to find common ground? And so the reason I call, continue to call on scripture's references to walking in the way of the spirit, to being led by the spirit, is a recognition from my own experience, from my reading of the text, and from the model of individuals like Howard Thurman, that if we are to truly follow in the way of the spirit, it requires us to open up our hearts to being arrested by the Spirit. That means that we are willing to be honest with ourselves whenever our actions and the fruit of our work oftentimes leads to death as opposed to life. And to seek to correct and turn away from the things that lead to death and turn towards the things that leave lead to life.

BT Irwin:

To back up to the beginning of the conversation, you asked something along the lines of, you said something along the lines of, you know, do people even want to find common ground? Do they want to get along? Do they want to coexist? And I feel like one of the reasons I was glad you included this text for Romans 8 is because I feel like we tend to answer those questions in a political, pragmatic manner, right? And not in a spiritual manner. So the the I think the root of racism is often economic or it's about power. When you bring the Holy Spirit into this conversation, when you lead us to uh the picture that Paul paints in Romans chapter 8, it really calls into question what do we think power is and where do we think it comes from? And that changes the whole dynamic. Now we're not we're not speaking in a pragmatic, you know, are we getting along? Are we are we finding common ground? Are we talking politics here? It it takes us all into a different realm where the source of all power is the Holy Spirit, and we have no control over that, and there's always enough to go around. And that's why those fruit of the spirit can grow abundantly and produce a crop.

Tryce Prince:

When we get so caught up in partisan politics, in social issues, in those socially created categories that create boundaries between individuals and groups, we get caught up in a mindset of scarcity. There's only so many resources to go around. And sometimes that creates for us the notion or the ethic of our interactions with others that a win for you means a loss for me. But what we see over and over again in scripture is the exact opposite of that mindset, that the kingdom that Jesus comes to inaugurate on earth is a kingdom of abundance, where everyone has what they're need, what they need, where there is a river of life that produces a yield for every month, you know, where the streets are painted with gold, and where individuals have life and have it abundantly. If that is the eventual end of where we're going, then I think that has to inform how we live. You know, whenever you mention just now that that that peace on power, I think it's really important to also marry power with fear. Oftentimes they are one and the same, or they are you know connected. And I think that that's true in the case of you know our social and political categories, is we are seeking power, but oftentimes we are seeking it because we are fearful of what others will do if they get the power. I think that's the unique witness of the of the black church, is seeing that the gospel calls us to not do to the individuals that marginalize us what they did to us. And of course, we see that in scripture from Jesus. Because I think that it informs, it should inform our vision for our living on earth, that we should have a vision of abundance and not scarcity. We should have a vision of love and unity and not fear of the other and dominance, which ultimately I think happens uh whenever you are seeking to be in power, is you are seeking to dominate over others as opposed to uh finding that common ground and that unity that we've talked about.

BT Irwin:

Uh there was another text from Romans that came to mind for me. It wasn't in your essay, but I thought of it. It's uh chapter 12, verse 2. Every kid growing up memorizes it. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your minds so that you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. I believe the church can do all the quote-unquote church things according to biblical command and example, and yet become more and more worldly in its character before even anyone even notices it's happening. So, your bottom line, as I take it, is that the church needs to pray that God reveal whether we are, maybe without even noticing it, being conformed to the world's attitudes, practices, and thinking, which these days is adversarial and self-righteous as hell. And then you write that churches that are reservoirs of love, quote, need to be intentionally imagined, cultivated, and sustained, end quote, and quote, characterized by what they are for and not what they are against, end quote. So for all the church leaders listening to this, how do you suggest they start this work?

Tryce Prince:

I think it begins with an examination of what exactly Paul is calling us to our minds, our hearts. Um I think a question that I would ask is thinking of your teaching, your preaching, your discipleship, whether it be in small groups, in courses, your ministry work over the last year, would you say the majority of that has been motivated by uh social views and political views, or has it been motivated by the teachings of Jesus in Scripture? Um that seems to be an easy question to answer, but I don't think it's always as clear as Christians might want to believe it is. I think that when we do, you know, our sermon series, whenever we do our initiatives and events, we often believe that I'm doing this because of the teachings of Jesus. I'm doing this in response to Scripture, I'm doing this in response to my discernment of what God is calling us to. But there are times, I believe, where we are more concerned with responding to the trending hot topics, which is why I begin my essay with this notion of the virus of virality, the current hot button topic. And that becomes our motivation for our witness in our engagement. So we post on Facebook whenever a tragedy happens, we post our views on a particular trending topic to signal how we view. And sometimes we even shape our ministry and our preaching and teaching around what's happening. So I'll give you an example from a recent conversation I had with a pastor. It's a pastor in the Midwest, and he's got a relationship with another pastor in the South. And he's the pastor in the South saw that the pastor in the Midwest spoke on the recent ice raids in Chicago and the federal response and really the militarization of ICE in Chicago neighborhoods in their church and addressed it. And the question that he had posed to him from a pastor in the South was well, why would you waste your Sunday talking about that? I think that's an example of how we oftentimes approach cultural topics, is it's a distraction from what we really could be doing. Whereas I believe a preemptive strategy to engaging the culture well is to preemptively have those conversations of, hey, how should the principles of scripture, loving thy neighbor, apply to our immigration system? What is our witness in loving our neighbors whenever they're being kidnapped and ripped from their cars in our neighborhoods? The response that I gave was, what would it look like to instead of having sermon series on our relationships with uh our partners, our kids? What would it look like to have a sermon series on the Christian relationship with power, Christian relationship with our marriage or our neighbors, Christian relationship with stewardship, Christian relationship to our emotions, you know, that build out a uh theology. That goes beyond our family unit and engages in our world and seeks to be a witness as opposed to seeing social issues as a distraction.

BT Irwin:

Well, Trice Prince is director of the Carl Spain Center on Race Studies and Spiritual Action at Abilene Christian University, and he recently wrote the Christianity Today essay Fighting Fire with Plants that we've been discussing today. We'll put a link to that in the show notes as well as Trice's other projects. Trice, thank you for helping us renew our minds today. Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure. We hope that something you heard in this episode encouraged, enlightened, or enriched you in some way. If it did, thanks be to God. And please pay it forward. Subscribe to this podcast and share it with a friend. Recommend and review it wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Your subscription, recommendation, and review help us reach more people. Please send your comments, ideas, and suggestions to podcast at Christian Chronicle.org. Don't forget our ministry to inform and inspire Christians in congregations around the world is a nonprofit ministry that relies on your generosity. So if you like the show and you want to keep it going and make it even better, please make a tax-deductible gift to the Christian Chronicle at Christian Chronicle.org/slash donate. The Christian Chronicle Podcast is a production of the Christian Chronicle Incorporated, informing and inspiring Church of Christ congregations, members, and ministries around the world since 1943. The Christian Chronicle's managing editor is Calvin Cockle, Editor-in-Chief Bobby Ross Jr., and President and CEO Eric Trigestaff. The Christian Chronicle Podcast is written, directed, and hosted by B.T. Irwin and recorded in Detroit, Michigan, USA. Editing show notes and transcript services by Kinsey James, mastering mixing and sound quality by James Flanagan. Until next time, may grace and peace be yours in abundance.